Player Interaction with World/Story

[Mordred]

S'ohkay.

We have reams of pages about how battle mechanics/character attributes will work, and more reams about the world the game will be set in. What we don't have reams of is "how these things connect to each other."

What kind of story are we trying to tell?
By what means will this story be conveyed?

This does not mean "what's the plot of the game." I don't give a shit about that right now. What it means is, "if there's a story out there, how do players catch it?"

This is not a kingdom-building game like RTK or its many spinoffs. This is not a tabletop RPG. This is not a video game.

What we've got here is a game that, from a player's perspective, is about them and their bunch of comrades running around a world and interacting with its inhabitants, with the end of achieiving some kind of goal. The problem is, from a GM's perspective, we're going to have potentially dozens of parties of adventurers all pursuing some kind of goal.

And don't say "you set your own goals." That's not a story, then, that's Minecraft. To tell a story, it needs a beginning, an end, and a way to get from one to the other. That's not to say every player will share the same goal, but there need to be some nonzero number of end goals, and paths for achieving them, such that by the time the game ends, SOMEONE has achieved their goal.

So for instance, drawing on our 50 Year War setting, that's two goals right off the bat: Fight for Ivalice, drive the Ordalians out of Zelamonia. Pursue this goal by accepting missions from knightly orders to fight and push back the enemy. Or, fight for Ordallia, drive the Ivalicians out of Zelamonia.

But what about everyone else? What about the monster fights? What goal are monster hunter types pursuing through their hunts? Is that a direction we want to support? The problem with that is that it will be easy to fall into the MMO trap where the battles you fight have no signficance because everyone fights the same battles.

tl;dr we need some actionable story thread ideas.

[Diethe]

Well, just throwing this out as a thing thats at the back of my head as well.

How do we want players to be able to interact?

Shall we eventually pair them up as like, 4-player groups perhaps per faction plus a group of wanderer ones? They go through a faction's storyline we come up with parallel to the main storyline which we eventually merge each faction to like a common interest? It'll be sort of a mix between a D&D companionship and a Skyrim questline (Of course that's generally speaking)?

Shall we form a web of propositions that start off groups into storylines of their own with the participants invited to the next chain of events? Of course new players can hop in as well.

And on to of all that, we consider also the overall war itself which Schwer likes to talk about, with cities and forts being of important influence. Capturing city A would allow players for example to have sort of 'reinforcements' (In the form of a guest character) or an extra 4th skirmish to capturing a city.

[Schwerpunkt]

See, this is the hard part. Unlike kingdom competition sims (like RTK), where you can just throw people at each other and say "go," making a game like this work means you must have a clear narrative for every faction. And that's hard because you need to juggle plot-based arcs, character-based arcs, and player characters all at the same time.

Take the Hokuten. It's not enough to say "they're fighting the Corpse Brigade." You need clear growth arcs for each GMNPC. Maybe Barbaneth faces an internal dilemma because he's now turning his sword against peasants who had previously fought for the Hokuten (or Fovoham). Maybe Dycedarg sees the chaos around him and identifies opportunity. Maybe Zalbag takes "family first" to a whole new level.

The point is that every major political institution and every major character needs to have their own distinctive arc. And no, that's not easy to do. We basically have to draft outlines for nine novellas.

Beta is easy, since we've really only got five major factions (Nanten, Hokuten, Zelamonian nationalists, Ordallia, and Ordallian loyalists) that fall into what amounts to a very binary alignment system ("for or against the Ordallian occupation?"). But the full game is much harder. So what we need:

1. Clear character arcs for every major GMNPC.
2. Clear objectives and priorities for every faction.
3. Clear step-by-step progress to achieve those objectives.

To integrate players, we then have to decide how they'll be involved. We're at a point where everything is on a war footing and it really shouldn't be that hard to have every action tie into the war. Yes, killing some dragons in Romanda should, in some way, impact the battles that unfold.

We can sort of handwave faction progress by simply outsourcing that directly to players. The Siege of Riovanes, for instance, could easily be turned into a pair of campaigns.

These would be fought by "specialist" soldiers (ie, PCs). We'd probably be looking at around 6 per campaign. We could work with more if we had a bigger map, though.

So, Riovanes. Let's look at it:
Phase 0: Status quo.
Phase I: Romandan raiders attack through the sewers.
Phase II: Romandan raiders try to burn the grain stores.
Phase III: Romandan raiders find and engage the watch captain.
Phase IV: Romandan army gate crashes the party. This phase would probably be a slaughter.
Phase V: Some assassin or other serves as the 'final boss' of the siege. Not Walid Zal, though, because he'd be more bullshit than Celia and Lede. At least at early levels.

The Khamja counter-campaign, then, would look something like this:
Phase 0: Operating out of Zeakden.
Phase I: Assassinate couriers moving between Yardrow and Riovanes.
Phase II: Waylay and kill a patrol for their uniforms.
Phase III: Infiltrate the city. Probably kill a few guards along the way.
Phase IV: Poison the well.
Phase V: Attack and kill the guard captain.

So you've got shit like this happening in every major theater. We'd probably be fielding mini-boss NPCs early (like party level + 4 or something), and then transition to GMNPCs showing up around level 15 or so. Then the conflicts would continuously escalate until we get Johann and Barbaneth as the "kill this dude" battle objective.

That, anyway, is how I envision it.

[Mordred]

May 14, 2013 19:00:06 GMT -6 Diethe said:

Shall we form a web of propositions that start off groups into storylines of their own with the participants invited to the next chain of events? Of course new players can hop in as well.

My thoughts exactly. Incorporating each NPC character's own arc as Schwer says, we need to come up with a "web" of interlocking quests that converge to one center.

Schwer's example of the Riovanes campaign is a simplistic example of what I'm talking about...

I guess the best way to go about this is to start from the end: what are the possible endings to FFS? We already know the beginning. To chart a course to an ending, we need to figure out all the outcomes.

[Diethe]

May 14, 2013 19:20:34 GMT -6 Schwerpunkt said:

So, Riovanes. Let's look at it:
Phase 0: Status quo.
Phase I: Romandan raiders attack through the sewers.
Phase II: Romandan raiders try to burn the grain stores.
Phase III: Romandan raiders find and engage the watch captain.
Phase IV: Romandan army gate crashes the party. This phase would probably be a slaughter.
Phase V: Some assassin or other serves as the 'final boss' of the siege. Not Walid Zal, though, because he'd be more bullshit than Celia and Lede. At least at early levels.

The Khamja counter-campaign, then, would look something like this:
Phase 0: Operating out of Zeakden.
Phase I: Assassinate couriers moving between Yardrow and Riovanes.
Phase II: Waylay and kill a patrol for their uniforms.
Phase III: Infiltrate the city. Probably kill a few guards along the way.
Phase IV: Poison the well.
Phase V: Attack and kill the guard captain.

So you've got shit like this happening in every major theater. We'd probably be fielding mini-boss NPCs early (like party level + 4 or something), and then transition to GMNPCs showing up around level 15 or so. Then the conflicts would continuously escalate until we get Johann and Barbaneth as the "kill this dude" battle objective.

That, anyway, is how I envision it.

I like this. Dont forget, Phases dont necessarily have to be in sequential order. There might be 2 phases happening at the same time that might affect the next phase, for example:

Phase 1A: Defeat the guards outside (Group 1)
Phase 1B: Sneak in the castle (Group 2)
Phase 2: Kill the General

If for example Group 1 fails miserably in their skirmish, the General in Phase 2 will have a lot more backup. I like how everything is a web of a web. Skirmishes web into each other, which weave itself into events, which weave itself into storylines and finally, the central 'endgame' we still have yet to figure out like Mord pointed out, though is it cool for us to talk of the endgames in public like we're giving it away?

As a side note, I believe Elidibus is involved in this, aye. He had all these artifacts and then right after retaking Riovanes the guy just disappeared.

It'll be nice. There'd be priority invites to certain players in factions or in the current story arc then probably a few slots for new guys to join. Players at this point will be able to flesh out their storylines based on the events they have participated in. In the case of the beta, yeah. Pretty easy with it being mostly war.

How will Players be involved in the web? Jumping right in the skirmishes and events basically and eventually getting thrown into the current. We can have one sort of timeline thread tracking all the events and their respecting topics and links.

This is something really different I have to say, from the typical Kingdom Sims we have. We need different threads, different forum organization. We need 'event sign ups' apart from Faction Forums. Topics will probably be categorized into these events (Of course there's still open RP) for example, Siege of Riovanes [3 Slots] or [Reserved for Guy 1, Guy 2] something like that.

Skirmishes and their respective outlines of course, spawn even more webs and branches. What if you keep losing to that goblin king we were talking about? Would his forces grow stronger? New campaigns are then made.

[Ilium]

May 14, 2013 20:12:47 GMT -6 Mordred said:

I guess the best way to go about this is to start from the end: what are the possible endings to FFS? We already know the beginning. To chart a course to an ending, we need to figure out all the outcomes.

Pende had a good idea on this a few months ago:

Mar 22, 2013 22:11:50 GMT -6 pendejochy said:

Sounds good. I think that's what the staff had wanted to do for V3 too.

Another idea is maybe a fallen Ivalice. Except it didn't fall to demons like in V2, it fell to a group of foreign invaders who carved Ivalice up like a turkey among themselves, so you have Romanda controlling the north, Ordalia controlling the east, etc and these different factions are now vying for control over the entire state.

Ivalice's government is either limited to just Lesalia and the surrounding cities, or completely collapsed, with only some fanatical nationalists spread throughout the region remaining. These nationalists are so desperate to repel their invaders, that they're willing to make a deal with the devil(s) and have been hunting down some dark and unstable magic to revive their shattered kingdom. That might be more of an idea if this first version is a success though.

We can take some liberty with this, but I like it as starting point on where to base the full version of the game. Plus it would allow us to implement a true kingdom simulation environment seamlessly both storyline wise and mechanics wise (after learning with factions in the beta).

[Schwerpunkt]

Alright. We can't really do this topic right now because we have to work out the story stuff first. I'll post a story thread later (distinct from the storyline thread, which is just my timeline thread) and go crazy with it.

[Ilium]

Are there any changes you are making? Because I kind of like the idea of starting the beta with the two main sieges going on in RIovanes and Zeltennia.

[Ilium]

Going off of pende's suggestion, we can come up with several different end-beta scenarios that can lead us into the full version. Using these scenarios, we can begin to flesh out more how these kingdoms and factions go about reaching their goals.

• Ivalice Major Victory: Ordalia and Romanda are both repelled with varied levels of success. Zelamonia is retaken. The Rhana Strait is firmly controlled by Ivalice however Ordalia and Romanda are able to maintain a contested and dangerous water route crossing through the island separating the Reaver Sea and Sea of Storms.
  
• Ivalice Minor Victory: The two invading nations suffer substantial casualties however the damage done to Ivalice proper is worse. Due to low morale and lack of supplies Ordalia and Romanda both back off for the time being to regroup. The seven main provinces are in varying degrees of revolt and martial control.
  
• Ordalia Major Victory: The eastern kingdom rolls through Zeltennia and either has full control of Limberry or the region is about to fall at any moment. Lionel's resources are completely devoted to repelling the Hosts while Gallione and Lesalia are damaged heavily from war with Romanda. Ordalia severs their alliance with Romanda preemptively as they feel total control of the continent is imminent.
  
• Ordalia Minor Victory: Ordalia is successful in their siege of Zeltennia, but resources are spent and they are forced to wall up in the new hold. Ivalice is able to repel Romanda at Riovanes however the Corpse Brigade becomes the main threat the crown. Ordalia and Romanda remain allied as they plan their next movements.
  
• Romanda Major Victory: Riovanes falls. One division is sent West to Igros and one South to Dorter in hopes of critically decimating Ivalice's military and trade might. Although they have not been seized, public opinion is that both provinces are in the hands of the Northerners. Ordalia struggles but overtakes Zeltennia due to Ivalice's resources being completely redirected to the West coast. The alliance remains in tact however Romanda has grown tired of it, and begins turning a cold shoulder to requests and pleas made by Ordalia.
  
• Romanda Minor Victory: RIovanes is overrun yet outlyting territories are defended by the Hokuten. As Ivalice falls into civil war, Romanda stalls their march content with having a foothold on the continent. Zeltennia defends its walls but is not in a position to repel another attack. Ordalia and Romanda remain steadfast in their treaty knowing a killing blow on Ivalice is within their grasp.
  

[Ilium]

May 14, 2013 19:20:34 GMT -6 Schwerpunkt said:

Beta is easy, since we've really only got five major factions (Nanten, Hokuten, Zelamonian nationalists, Ordallia, and Ordallian loyalists) that fall into what amounts to a very binary alignment system ("for or against the Ordallian occupation?"). But the full game is much harder.

I have been thinking of this localization for the beta for a while, and my opinion on it has grown cold. Basically what do we want accomplished with the beta? I would like to explore and test as many different variables as possible. Perhaps we could have a 'staggered release' of playable regions for the beta, beginning with Zeltennia/Zelamonia, followed by Fovoham and Lesalia, with maybe a final release of the entire map. This way we can test micro regional mechanics and game flow in the beginning, and as more people join and we get a better understanding of how to handle game turns, we can expand the horizons and game potential. Basically, I don't want a situation where our beta gets too popular to be held within a small section of the map. I also don't want to finish the beta preemptively due to popularity; though we will be in a testing environment, players would still want closure for their characters. 

[Mordred]

We can take some liberty with this, but I like it as starting point on where to base the full version of the game. Plus it would allow us to implement a true kingdom simulation environment seamlessly both storyline wise and mechanics wise (after learning with factions in the beta).

Sweet Georgia Brown. 0_o

Ilium, where exactly are you going with this?

[Diethe]

I like the webs idea either way. Sort of like how Samurai Warriors looked like except it was limited. Like, losing General X of Ivalice or losing in a skirmish would sometimes prevent entire webs from happening and instead allow a more closer Romandan/Ordallian victory because he isn't around and didn't suggest this X course of action.

[Ilium]

Mordred

Player-managed factions for the most part. The major machinations of every faction shouldn't need to be ran centrally by staff GMNPCS during the full game. Of course a few will exist, but they will act in auxiliary roles.

[Schwerpunkt]

May 15, 2013 17:47:38 GMT -6 Ilium said:

Mordred

Player-managed factions for the most part. The major machinations of every faction shouldn't need to be ran centrally by staff GMNPCS during the full game. Of course a few will exist, but they will act in auxiliary roles.

And I completely disagree here.

First of all, handing players the ability to start as rulers completely changes the dynamic of the game. The reason we love Delita is because he climbs the social ladder, killing or removing everyone in his way, until he finally has the crown. He's a fantastic character because he earns every single promotion he gets. By simply giving PCs the opportunity to start as faction leaders, we castrate that unique element of the game. RTK games (which this would be modeled after) inherently undermine RP because it's so damned hard to climb the ranks.

Second, it cannot be balanced. We went over this before: the distribution of territories is simply nowhere near balanced. Even after Ordallia and Romanda got a lot of love in the form of extra cities, they're simply nowhere near as large on the map as Ivalice is. And if we extend the map, Ordallia crushes everyone in terms of sheer locations it owns. This cannot be balanced without basically redoing everything.

Third, it adds an enormous amount of shit for us to do. If players are running kingdoms, we need to have kingdom turns. If we have kingdom turns, we need a full-blown economy. If we have a full-blown economy, we need things to spend that money on (primarily soldiers and buildings). If we have those things, we need some way to use them (which means kingdom-on-kingdom battles). The end result is we fall into the HoI trap of trying to balance a kingdom game and a player game and, when the dust settles, we've failed to do either.

Fourth, any story we want to craft is out the window. RTK sim storylines are "we have some contrived reason why you're all where you are, now go kill each other." And then we wrap everything up with a few pages of "oh, such and such character did this or that." The storyline element is basically sacrificed on the altar of gameplay. Furthermore, I'll note that games like HoC, SimRTK, and WotD lend themselves far more to OOC-based gaming than they do IC-based gaming. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but the RP does suffer as a direct result (to use a very recent example on HoC, Gongsun Zan has gone from 'I want to stab that guy in the face' to 'he's mah bro' in his relationship with Arslan in about five posts -- because it was expedient for Gongsun Zan's (GM) player to do this with Arslan (a PC)).

Fifth, people didn't play HoI to simulate kingdoms. That end of the game was badly designed. And it pretty much had to be: it's nigh impossible to balance a game with as many geographic chokepoints as Ivalice, to say nothing of how utterly impossible it is to balance towns like Barias with their much larger city neighbors like Lionel. People played HoI because their characters had cool stories. Everything else was window dressing. Bad window dressing.

Going this route is a mistake. A very big mistake.

[Ilium]

We can discuss the pros and cons of this aspect after we have some experience with how we can implement factions in the beta. If it becomes apparent then that this isn't possible, then that will be a decision that we will make. However the point of keeping factions GMNPC ran during the beta is so that we are able to develop a functioning kingdom element to the game. Until that point, anticipate player ran factions for the full version.