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Post by Diethe on May 15, 2013 18:55:27 GMT -6
The compromise, at least, that we would like to be able to make is eventually mantling these players to be sort of semi-RP Masters who are given a responsibility and stake of pursuing a storyline instead of 'oh this is the character ending', we should have an established ending or possible endings we talk about and base our performance from the game on the end result.
In the meantime with the current state of things, I agree with Scwer. You know what's worse? Our dedicated playerbase whos been with us since HOI 1 are also from RTK who focus on gameplay and not the story or roleplay aspect of the game. Not necessarily bad but they dont really mantle themselves as characters as their priority rather than 'winning the game' (Conquer the land hurr, or be level 50 with max stats) Instead of imagining what theywant to play and go from there, they choose to play the imbalanced character (See: Rune Knight) and build up a patchwork story from there.
Give the players the option of running kingdoms and RP and story suffers. I'll elaborate a bit later. Work.
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Post by Ilium on May 15, 2013 19:05:03 GMT -6
I understand the traditional kingdom mechanic does not translate to this environment. It obviously did not work with Heroes of Ivalice, and it would be no different here. Removing the kingdom management element from the game was a fundamental point I started out with. Factions will fill a similar role but will act and operate much differently. Like I said I'm not really even going to entertain this thought any further until we are well into the beta, when we will obviously have experience as maintaining that function ourselves for the entire player base.
Despite some of the styles of play that are employed at other much more popular sim websites, I do not intend to hold that against them or even alienate them because of it.
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Mordred
Role Player
Don't believe the Church and State.
Posts: 195
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Post by Mordred on May 15, 2013 19:37:01 GMT -6
Hell's bells. 0_o
Ilium, you need to critically evaluate what you want this game to be. You cannot run one game that is simultaneously a kingdom battles simulation and a character-driven roleplay adventure. It's not that I doubt your technical capacity to model both simultaneously, rather it's that it is not narratively possible to reconcile both of these elements in a way that gives both anything close to equal significance.
Each one of these modes is a full-fledged game unto itself, and grafting them onto each other reflects a lack of clarity in your vision for the game.
How can this be a game about kingdoms if individuals can change the course of history without the infrastructure of a kingdom behind them? Narratively, this will be satisfying for the come-from-nothing hero, but every player who invested their time into the kingdom aspect will piss blood when they find out that all their months (or years!) of planning and campaigning have been overcome from an unforeseeable threat. Conversely, no one wants to spend years on an epic quest only to find out the world is really controlled by armies and governments operating on a scale beyond their own ability to alter.
Like I said in the first post: a game has to have a goal and a way to get there. Stapling two games together like this means you have two layers of goals and pathing towards those goals, with the end result that no one can ever really be said to have "won," because no one was playing by the same rules to begin with.
This isn't to say that players and factions should be strictly demarcated to the extent of having no mutual interaction. What I mean is that if you're thinking of something along the lines of HoI - in which the game's actual story was driven by players on quests and there were also kingdoms glued on - you are barking up two trees at once.
Incidentally, a "beta" is a full dress rehearsal for the release product. Planning a game with PC factions and not having PC factions in the beta completely misses the point of staging one - if you want a release that's missing integral components of the final game, you're talking about an alpha release or a systems test.
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Post by Ilium on May 15, 2013 19:54:41 GMT -6
Getting back on topic, does everyone agree that my base outline of end-beta scenarios is fair? If so, we can go forward and start looking at each faction's individual motives and goals.
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Schwerpunkt
Power Gamer
Who would ever want to be king?
Posts: 422
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Post by Schwerpunkt on May 15, 2013 20:04:38 GMT -6
I really don't think this is something we can gloss over. We have, for over a month, been laboring under the understanding that we're designing a very specific game. Without warning, you spring the "no, we're actually doing this instead" argument on us. It completely changes the dynamic of everything.
This isn't a discussion we can table, Ilium. Everyone here has been putting in dozens of man hours to push us towards a final product and you're sweeping in here and trying to move the goal posts without even consulting with us. That's not kosher.
HoI made the fundamental mistake of trying to climb up, as Mord put it, both of these trees at once. I hate to use the appeal to popularity fallacy, Ilium, but I seriously doubt Mord, Diethe, and I are all way off base on this.
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Post by Ilium on May 15, 2013 20:39:41 GMT -6
All great and appropriate observations. I think the original staff of HoI had a good thing going with v1, before they pulled the plug on that for whatever reasons at the time. That would definitely contributed to the high staff turnover rate that game had, including myself in that list. One thing I'm trying emphasize for at least the first version of this game, is simplicity. I think the diversity available to Heroes of Ivalice is certainly attainable, however you need to have a firm grasp on the fundamentals of which you want to achieve. They could have done that with v1, if they had continued with that version for a while longer. The level of variance HoI tried to accomplish is not a goal that I have personally at this time for FFSim. Going back to your question of where the focus should be laid in this game, kingdoms or individuals, it is my personal opinion that it should be individual-focused. For v1, I'm hesitant to make any PC-ran kingdoms, or put any of the focus on kingdom affairs. Joining a kingdom will be ancillary to any player's goals for this game. Kingdom affairs will be managed mostly by Roleplay Masters, who will progress the storyline of the game appropriately, but leaving major plot arcs open to reactions from the PC's. In other words, for example, the invasion of Romanda will occur regardless of PC actions, but the result of that invasion could theoretically be left up to the those same PC actions.
That could all change though with v2, which is still way, way, way too far off to begin any real speculation on. However what I want to accomplish with v1 is nailing down the fundamentals of the game, even to the point of program automation of some of those aspects. That could possibly open up the opportunities that were available to players in HoI, but v1 won't be closed pre-maturely to get to that goal sooner than necessary.So to get back to the main point, simplicity is something I would personally like to emphasize in v1. Port as much as we can from the original game, making any necessary changes to reflect balance issues needed, but the idea is to get a stable game running with routine, quick game turns. Anything in the way of making that happen in v1 will need to be scrapped or worked on in anticipation for v2. This is the premise that I have been working under since creating the board. This was posted before the idea of a beta, so replace 'v1' with 'beta' and 'v2' with 'v1'. During the beta there will be a lot of aspects of the game that the staff are going maintain themselves, separating player interaction from the equation. Factions represent the kingdom element of the sim gaming environment from which this game originally rose. The ' sim' aspect of FF 'Sim' was never removed entirely. Staff will be completely handling that aspect of the game behind the scenes, developing it in a way unique to any of the other related games, so to suit the needs of the individual player and questing groups. Yes, the beta's storyline will be mostly premeditated through the use of major plot arcs the factions will act around. Yes, there are plans in place to develop the player/kingdom interaction environment around this model. Its understandable if you don't wish to contribute to this part of development, but there are others who are. Either way I won't be involved in alienating 90% of our pre-existing playerbase.
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Post by Ilium on May 15, 2013 21:33:30 GMT -6
Going off of pende's suggestion, we can come up with several different end-beta scenarios that can lead us into the full version. Using these scenarios, we can begin to flesh out more how these kingdoms and factions go about reaching their goals. - Ivalice Major Victory: Ordalia and Romanda are both repelled with varied levels of success. Zelamonia is retaken. The Rhana Strait is firmly controlled by Ivalice however Ordalia and Romanda are able to maintain a contested and dangerous water route crossing through the island separating the Reaver Sea and Sea of Storms.
- Ivalice Minor Victory: The two invading nations suffer substantial casualties however the damage done to Ivalice proper is worse. Due to low morale and lack of supplies Ordalia and Romanda both back off for the time being to regroup. The seven main provinces are in varying degrees of revolt and martial control.
- Ordalia Major Victory: The eastern kingdom rolls through Zeltennia and either has full control of Limberry or the region is about to fall at any moment. Lionel's resources are completely devoted to repelling the Hosts while Gallione and Lesalia are damaged heavily from war with Romanda. Ordalia severs their alliance with Romanda preemptively as they feel total control of the continent is imminent.
- Ordalia Minor Victory: Ordalia is successful in their siege of Zeltennia, but resources are spent and they are forced to wall up in the new hold. Ivalice is able to repel Romanda at Riovanes however the Corpse Brigade becomes the main threat the crown. Ordalia and Romanda remain allied as they plan their next movements.
- Romanda Major Victory: Riovanes falls. One division is sent West to Igros and one South to Dorter in hopes of critically decimating Ivalice's military and trade might. Although they have not been seized, public opinion is that both provinces are in the hands of the Northerners. Ordalia struggles but overtakes Zeltennia due to Ivalice's resources being completely redirected to the West coast. The alliance remains in tact however Romanda has grown tired of it, and begins turning a cold shoulder to requests and pleas made by Ordalia.
- Romanda Minor Victory: RIovanes is overrun yet outlyting territories are defended by the Hokuten. As Ivalice falls into civil war, Romanda stalls their march content with having a foothold on the continent. Zeltennia defends its walls but is not in a position to repel another attack. Ordalia and Romanda remain steadfast in their treaty knowing a killing blow on Ivalice is within their grasp.
Assuming these are suitable circumstances to envision different end-game scenarios for the beta, we can begin to extrapolate possible starting points for these events. Using Schwerpunkts early draft of a timeline here: ffsim.proboards.com/post/239/thread Year 46: The Trade City of Sal Ghidos falls to the Ordallian Expeditionary Corps. Ordallian forces begin to march on Zeltennia Castle. Meanwhile, Romandan forces make landfall in the Yuguewood. Year 47: Johann I attacks Yardrow City at night, taking the walls by dawn. The city capitulates before noon. Incensed, Grand Duke Barrington of Fovoham rallies his army, enlisting the aid of the Corpse Brigade. The Siege of Zeltennia Castle begins. Year 48: Fovoham and Romandan forces clash in the Yuguewood, ending in a tactical victory for the Romandan forces. Grand Duke Barrington withdraws with his army intact to fight another day. Citing their inability to lend him victory, Barrington refuses to pay the Corpse Brigade. Year 49: The Siege of Riovanes begins. After investing the castle, Johann I leads a small force and captures the Windflats west of the city. The Corpse Brigade revolts, slaughtering the garrisons at Mount Bervenia, the Lenalian Plateau, and Zeklaus. The Hokuten effort to relieve Riovanes is frustrated by the appearance of "brigands" in Lesalia and Gallione. Year 50: The game begins as the Siege of Riovanes enters its second year and the Siege of Zeltennia enters its fourth year. The Hokuten and Touten begin counter-insurgency campaigns against the Corpse Brigade. The Nanten prepare to assault Mount Germinas. We can brainstorm where each faction fits into this general timeline. Hokuten
Trusted with the responsibility of defending Fovoham from Romanda, Balbanes leads his knights into Riovanes to repel the Northern invaders. However Balbanes soon develops ulterior motives. As civil unrest continues to erupt across Ivalice spear headed by the Corspe Brigade, the Knight slowly turns more and more of his focus towards the eradication of these bandits, regardless of the state of the Romandan siege. NantenBased in Zeltennia, the Nanten have their hands full dealing with the invading Ordallian armies. Cidolfus Orlandeau leads his armies against the hosts, bravely defending his land. Dhalizun Host
Ordalian forces continue to lay siege on Zeltennia, hoping a breakthough is imminent.
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Post by Diethe on May 15, 2013 21:56:29 GMT -6
I doubt we'd be alienating a playerbase because we removed them from ever possibly ruling and coloring the map into their color. I believe we're even giving them a change of pace from the usual conquering and giving them a chance to be part of a storyline we crafted at the same time grow with their characters they invested in. They joined abecause of the possibility of roleplay, character development, questing and the 'Final Fantasy Tactics' brand. So lets show these. I doubt they joined because 'oh boy time to grow my epeen again and color the map black for my kingdom.' or 'i'll do everything to be king'. Heck, we're doing ourselves a favor by removing this minority. In my opinion really, the most we're doing is giving the players a new FFT-themed adventure and a change of pace from the typical conquer the world boardgame that I've seen firsthand since 2004. The progress will be there. Character development, new friends and recruits for your factions that lead to new scenarios and events (For example, conquering some village in Ordallia through an event with 2 skirmish points leads you to recruiting the Galthena siblings which leads you and your faction mates into another storyline relating to the siblings, which then lead to them being with one or two of the skirmish groups eventually in the end-game battles).
The goals are nice. End-game stuff that each faction would likely end up. Apart from that (Probably not in the beta) is the central storyline every person and faction is a part of. So alright, we'll talk about what's for beta, the factions involved and possible straggler Wanderer questlines non-affiliated officers can get involved in.
In terms of the kingdom stuff, I like what Schwer suggested like, a month ago. Similar to Mass Effect 3's war points where each successful faction skirmish, event, roleplay etc. contributes to the effort of that faction in the end game, either changing the ending itself or making the end-game battles relatively easier compared to having less faction war points (losing cities, generals, etc) Unlike Mass Effect 3 however, hopefully our actions matter this time.
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Post by kablizzy on May 15, 2013 22:12:22 GMT -6
This is precisely why I made the goals thread - If we were all on the same page going into development, these man-hours wouldn't be wasted in this way, and we wouldn't have to debate merits of things halfway through development. If we all are making different games, this is going to be v2 again, and if our comments have been any indication, that's the wrong way for us to go about this.
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Schwerpunkt
Power Gamer
Who would ever want to be king?
Posts: 422
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Post by Schwerpunkt on May 16, 2013 4:22:15 GMT -6
The problem there, Ilium, is that no one argued with your "we'll talk about it after v1" conclusion because no one here could have anticipated that you would consider a beta to be a full game; we all assumed that this was a discussion we'd have two years later after the dust had settled and we knew, right or wrong, what happened with the full game. But you've suddenly changed the mission parameters. A beta, by definition, is not a full game. It's a systems check, a stress test, and the part of the design process where you try to figure out how to goon proof your game. That's the role of the beta.
Given what you plan to do, the beta isn't a beta. It's an alpha. It's stress-testing only a handful of features that will actually make it into the final cut. It won't even have kingdom management, which is an enormous portion of the game. Can you imagine how bad an RTK game would be if the only systems that were vetted were the duels and sign up system?
It simply won't be possible to integrate both player-based and kingdom-based mechanics. And, more to the point, there's no reason to do so. I'm here to design the best player-centric sim that we currently have. I committed to this project and I'll do what I can to see it through to (at least) beta regardless, but shoehorning kingdom development into this game is really just going to throw a wet blanket on my desire to play it.
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Post by Diethe on May 16, 2013 8:15:31 GMT -6
Let's create a story-driven and character-centric faction management (I called it faction management specifically because it wont involve the kingdom conquering stuff we all got used to.) instead.
Like when a character eventually takes over a faction they're instead given semi-RP master status, shown the faction's plotted storyline and be allowed to make some revisions and plan with the admins on how the faction would go on for the rest of the game.
Each faction will have HQs (Their home base) from which they allow players to join. They will have events in the form of either RP (Go to this place, negotiate with this GMNPC) or skirmishes or campaigns (taking over cities with the use of a branching system of skirmishes). Each faction will have end-game goals that will be easier if all the events have been successfully done or will not be achieved if the players always fail. For example, the Corpse Brigade might have an end-game goal for the beta of taking Ziekden and Wiegraff surviving. Or, if the Hokuten manages to win at every turn and by the end of the beta they all won their events Barbaneth would actually have enough spare time to show up at the doorsteps of Ordallia, with the entire Hokuten faction PLUS Barbaneth as a guest appearing during the siege of Zeltennia. Ouch.
Cities and captured territories will be a boon (Something behind the scenes and not concerned with the players.) to the players in the form of easier skirmishes (In the form of 'reinforcements' in the plot background), backdoors and shortcuts to besieging cities and the like. I think we can give this idea a shot. We dont even have to form a kingdom system at all. We just track faction goals in a timeline topic, create branches or scenarios leading to the faction's endgame and that's it.
Apart from that, I guess we can allow wanderers to go factionless in groups I guess, with their own storylines we throw them in. Eventually after beta of course, we also need a central big plotline faction endings will be revolving around to. Apart from the war war war of course. Plus minor strands of story arcs revolving around minor dilemmas or conflicts in places or NPC's character dilemmas you help solve.
Apart from that, yeah. Hopefully we make it story and character centric where our game is a haven for adventure and questing and levelling and roleplay.
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Post by Ilium on May 16, 2013 8:27:21 GMT -6
This will be my last post on this thread about this topic, as I have been for weeks exhausted with how each and every thread devolves into needless conjecture over who thinks their idea of how to make the game is better. So let's get straight to it about the beta. From our discussions up to this point I can only imagine everyone has vividly different ideas for what is going to be accomplished in the beta. Let me detail exactly what needs to be done first of all with it. - Players will have a limited scope of the game to play with. In the beginning this will include player creation, personal turns, combat, factions and propositions. As the beta develops these will each get fleshed out more, along with additional features being released that had been in development behind the scenes.
- We will first test how well we have balanced these beginning features. Is character creation fair? Are the options for personal turns working? How well is the faction dynamic working? The biggest of these tests will be the combat test, which will feasibly span the entirety of the beta. Changes will be made continuously as feedback begins to justify these alterations.
- While that is going on, the more advanced features of the game will be under development behind the scenes by the staff. The reasons for this is two-fold: first, we are giving ourselves a lighter workload right at the beginning, and allowing us to channel our energy into improving the very base foundations of the game. Second, as the primary revisions to the mechanics begins, we will be able to adapt our development of the advanced features to reflect changes made to other features they are involved with. Therefor, we will not end up with an intricate, complex game built on a faulty foundational assumption.
- These advanced features will include crafting, marketplaces, faction management, large scale combat scenarios (6v6 up to 12v12 possibly) and the actual automation of most of these features. Once we have personal turns for the most part ironed out, crafting can be introduced and balanced according to player feedback. Once crafting is balanced, introduce PC marketplaces and balance that with the previous two variables, and so on and so forth.
- The aspects of factions that players will have direct involvement in during the beta, is the interaction with the GMNPC's and the multitude of questing options available. Obviously the staff will be manipulating all of this information behind the scenes, feeding plot arcs to the players in this way. What also will be developed alongside the storyline of the beta, will be the mechanics to handle dynamic faction management.
- What will be decided during this time is how best to implement this aspect into the full game. Perhaps it is a mechanic based off of ME3's war points. Perhaps it ties in ideas of Age of Empires or Civilization or whatever. It does not and will not be a direct lift of the RoTK simulation mechanic. However what is important to note is that the kingdom management environment is a part of the game, and also a part players could get heavily involved in alongside any other options they are able to get heavily involved in.
- As the beta advances, more complex aspects of the overall mechanic begins to get tested. We begin to see our first glimpses at how prestige classes work and how high level abilities stack up compared to the base classes. The process repeats again at this level of continuous revision due to player feedback Around this time we spring the major crisis-obstacle story arc on the players. whatever that may be, and begin the movement towards the climax.
- By the end of the beta, the staff should have more than a proper understanding of how the full game will be managed. With this knowledge at hand, transition into the full game with every feature available right at the beginning, every faction and location on the map available, with a hopefully large player-base, should be exponentially easier to manage and pull off successfully.
I will entertain questions based on this outline above, however this is how the progression of development during the beta will evolve. In the beginning we will be stressing only the base fundamentals of the game, but by the end we will be working with the full game. Really this is the only logical way of approaching this. If a feature needs to be developed entirely behind the scenes in the beta in anticipation for the complete launch, then it will be done so. The two main ones I am talking about here are faction/kingdom management and full combat automation.
Factions in v1 will exist to serve the individual player, and also groups of players raiding or questing. It will support and benefit from roleplay involvement of the players. There will also be a functional mechanic in place to effectively moderate these dynamics for the players, in the way our combat system moderates god-modding. Like I said if you are unwilling or not capable of contributing to this discussion that is perfectly understandable.
And just so we're clear, yes, my vision for v1 is for the players to be able to go to town on the storyline and other features themselves, with minimal steering and direction from the staff. We might have designed this place, but it is their game.
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Post by Ilium on May 16, 2013 9:54:46 GMT -6
Before we continue to look at any more faction motives, let's look at the storyline environment we can anticipate starting with at the beginning of the beta. Let's say we use the staggered release approach and still begin the beta with the Siege of Zeltennia and that surrounding region, as was the original idea. Possible factions involved in this theater are: - Nanten: Defenders of Zeltennia.
- Hokuten: Chasing around Corpse Brigade.
- Corpse Brigade: Roaming the region stirring shit.
- Dhalizun/Ghizkhazun Host: Laying siege to Zeltennia.
Possible locations:
- Zeltennia: The focal point of the region. Currently besieged by Ordallian hosts.
- Mount Germinas: Possible staging point for Ivalice counter-attack.
- Groffovia Border Town: The beta's Ivalician crossroads to the rest of the map
- Sal Ghidas Trade City: Possible Corpse Brigade tomfuckery.
- Radat Mining Town: Ordalian crossroads to the rest of the map.
- Mazar Garrison: Additional Ordallian location.
As the beta begins to grow and more players become active, we can integrate entire regions. We might also have to do this right from the start, but I don't anticipate that kind of activity so soon. Eventually when the participation in the beta reaches a critical mass we can introduce the second main theater of war, the Siege of Riovanes. We can hype this up like some kind of DLC release event and get everyone giddy in their pants about 'the expansion'. All factions would be activated, as well as the regions of Lesalia and Fovoham. If necessary we could also activate every region on the map during the beta, depending on player activity and feedback.
The point of localizing playable regions is to make sure we ensure as much PvP interaction as possible at varying levels of player activity. It would do us no good play-testing wise if we have only a dozen players at the start, and they are each trying to stake their claim to a certain section of the map. We need to mass our player pool together and encourage an active testing environment, so we make only a handful of locations to visit and a few factions to join. As they player base begins to overtake the amount of locations and options available equally to each PC, we expand.
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Post by Ilium on May 16, 2013 13:47:05 GMT -6
Looking at the Nanten first of all, let's look at their circumstances at the moment. Zeltennia has been under siege for four years. Before that began, Sal Ghidos fell to the Ordalian hosts. Obviously these knights are fighting with their backs against the wall. They see themselves as the last bastion of defense against the barbaric Eastern armies and the rest of Ivalice. They understand that if Zeltennia falls, Ordalia will have a clear shot straight to the Capital in Lesalia. Currently we have these NPC's: - Count Cidolphus Orlandeau
- Marquis Messam Elmdore de Limberry
- Orran Durai
- Leofrick
- Favian Veillantif
Using these characters, we can distribute the Nanten-specific story arcs to the players. There would be an overall story arc of the Nanten, and there will also be the individual NPC arcs which move the main story along. This kind of outline could be used across the board with all factions, to integrate the web idea of phase-based combat and roleplay scenarios evenly. So what exactly is the overall goal of the Nanten? What are each of these characters trying to accomplish? Once we have these ideas formed, we can begin to brainstorm ways to implement phases and the like to progress the story.
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Post by Diethe on May 16, 2013 20:17:50 GMT -6
Nanten Knights Leader: Cidolfus Orlandeau (GM NPC) HQ: Fort Besselat
Requirements for Joining: None
Ranks: General Etc. Troop Commander Knight Bannerman Recruit
End Game: -Repel the Dhalizun from Zeltennia (Favorable) -Repel the siege of Zeltennia Castle, back to start (Neutral) -Retreat to all forces to Fort Besselat as the front line of defense (Unfavorable) (Canon)
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Faction Storyline
A. Faction Arc:
A1: The New Recruits. A group of fresh recruits report to Count Cidolfus at Fort Besselat. They are tasked to pass through the siege lines of Zeltennia Castle and report to the Duke of Zeltennia regarding updates and reinforcements coming soon. The Marquis of Limberry stops you on the way out telling you of an Ordallian incursion at the Lesalian Border Town of Groffovia. At the same time, he tasks you to get supplied and train under Baron Grimms at the courtyard with regards to combat basics.
Leads to: C1 or D1. (Group vote.)
A2: Passing through the Siege Lines Following Count Orlandeau's orders, the group must pass through the dreaded Dhalizun host's siege lines at night and make it to Zeltennia Castle to relay the new orders from Count Orlandeau to coordinate a concerted pincer attack from Goltanna and Orlandeau's forces.
B. Cidolfus Orlandeau Arc:
C. Messam Elmdore Arc:
D. Fredrick Grimms Arc:
D1: Back to basics The fresh new recruits are pitted against the leader of the Blackram Knights.
Leads to: A2 with Baron Grimms as a guest if SUCCESS. C1 or A2 without Baron Grimms if FAILURE. (Group vote or depending if there is another group tackling C1 already)
E. Branching Arcs:
E1: Noble Kidnapping Having failed to stop a group of Ordallian outriders pass through the battle lines in Groffovia, a group of Nanten has been tasked to root out the spies in hiding within the Royal Province before they cause any more harm.
X. Misc Arcs:
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