|
|
Post by kablizzy on Apr 27, 2013 0:30:00 GMT -6
For all discussion on the Thief basic class. Notes:
- I'd LOVE to see abilities based upon lower brave instead of higher. Abilities based on negative brave?
- If we don't do Chemist, I'd love to Thief to get some of the Chemist abilities.
- Very unfinished, but I'd love to focus on lower Brave being a good thing.
- I'd love suggestions for more abilities.
- Non-combat skill: Steal from NPC shops? |
|
Schwerpunkt
Power Gamer
Who would ever want to be king?
Posts: 422
|
Post by Schwerpunkt on Apr 27, 2013 1:58:19 GMT -6
Low brave doesn't work well with reaction abilities. If we go that way, these reaction abilities will almost entirely be worth more to secondary classes than the thief himself.
Anyway, I don't like the Thief. I'd like to replace him with the Brigand, Rogue, Knave, or something along those lines. The reason is simple, really: I don't like the idea of someone stealing my weapon. Having it disarmed I can live with; that's a temporary DPS decrease that is perfectly valid. Having something broken for the duration of the battle I can also deal with; you kind of expect that. But permanently losing the sword I spent three turns saving up, or the katana I just won from a prop, to some other guy for no reason at all? That's lame. Especially since all he has to do is get lucky with a steal role and he's suddenly done something that saves him a whole pile of gold and costs me gold at the same time.
Instead, I'd like to see the Vagabond (or whatever we name him). Basically, he's the Fencer; a high-agility fighter that focuses on applying status effects (and maybe a bit of CC) and degrading the efficiency of the other team (by contrast, the Ninja would be a high-agility fighter that specializes in murdering people with relatively few status effects and such). This gives you a second high-agility option, which makes sense because we have the Knight and Lancer, two slower classes with a metric ton of health (and probably P-Ev, too).
The Vagabond would basically take the Fencer's emphasis on detrimental status effects, add maybe a few tricks from the Chemist (stuff like flash powder, which might let you 'teleport' behind a target to stab him in the back for increased damage), and combine a few skills from the Thief. Mainly, I'd like to see Vagabonds be able to loot perma-dead units (probably with a skill called 'Rifle Corpse' or something), giving them the ability to effectively steal from dead characters).
What're you thoughts on that?
|
|
|
|
Post by Diethe on Apr 27, 2013 6:10:51 GMT -6
I agree with the thoughts on how we can change up the class, however I'd like to keep the name 'Thief' as the class for the sake of original classses being kept like the rest but yeah I'd really see the stealing mechanic would be a problem. The solution would be changing up how the thief is played, its abilities, etc. There could probably be a stealing mechanic still, but would be kept to stealing from NPCs perhaps or perhaps some other idea we can come up with? Either way, I'd rather we keep the 'Thief' class or keep it by name and overhaul some of its mechanics. It's pretty iconic enough to be kept as it is even in name only, similar to Knights, Archers and the Mages. More for personal preference as well for me to request keeping the 'Thief' class name.
In the meantime, rogues-likes in games are usually great critial hitters or have a stealth mechanic. They're speedy, hit with bonuses if you backstab, and basically keep tricks up their sleeve and add status effects. Usually under equipped and not packing as big a punch.
Meanwhile, I like the sneak mechanic. It could probably act similar to lancer where the lancer jumps and damages the enemy. A similar mechanic for the thief could be that once in sneak mode, he cannot act (Or move? Dunno.) and exposes himself once he does make an attack; of course with a bonus on damage.
Or, merely an ability where he disappears and after a set time appears behind an enemy to do damage like a lancer does with jump.
|
|
Schwerpunkt
Power Gamer
Who would ever want to be king?
Posts: 422
|
Post by Schwerpunkt on Apr 27, 2013 6:59:30 GMT -6
Eh. I feel like Thief isn't so much a job title as it is "this is what he does -- he steals." It's inherently limiting. It'd be like calling the Lancer "spearman" or the Archer "bowman."
We could split the difference and just call him a Bandit (which does crop up as a distinct class). Same exact connotation (he steals things), but with the implication that he has the ability to hit people, too. I prefer Vagabond, but I do see your point; people may be attached to the name because it's so common in the franchise.
Why don't we just add a poll to the topic asking whether we prefer Thief or Bandit?
|
|
|
|
Post by Diethe on Apr 27, 2013 7:09:42 GMT -6
Well, sure a poll is alright. But anyway, my argument would be that it's been a prime class throughout FF with its distinct greenish uniform already. Protagonists have been deemed as thief classes for a few FF games already. There's signuture abilities like steal and mug that I'd rather we fix than remove. It's a 'job' like squire and knight is a job. Its what he does for a living anyway. It's a prevalent job especially among the lower class during and after the War of the lions. If anything I'd like to keep the name as it is and we could discuss on abilities and fixing the stealing mechanic.
|
|
Schwerpunkt
Power Gamer
Who would ever want to be king?
Posts: 422
|
Post by Schwerpunkt on Apr 27, 2013 7:19:20 GMT -6
While I get what you're saying, I really dislike stealing items. It's fine in a single player game (especially when it's the only way to get stuff like the Genji set), but in the context of a multiplayer game it's just horrifically unfair. And since stealing is so binary -- you either steal the item or you don't -- I'm not even sure what possible options we have to 'fix' the mechanic. I just can't think of a way to design a Thief class that isn't "Imma steal all your stuff."
|
|
|
|
Post by Ilium on Apr 27, 2013 7:19:40 GMT -6
Why don't we just add a poll to the topic asking whether we prefer Thief or Bandit? I'll take you up on that suggestion. I will be replying in more detail later on today, as I'm getting ready for work and I also work out of town today. However I would like to let everyone know I will be providing a counter point to this historically debated topic: the merits of allowing Thief to steal. |
|
Schwerpunkt
Power Gamer
Who would ever want to be king?
Posts: 422
|
Post by Schwerpunkt on Apr 27, 2013 7:24:47 GMT -6
Why don't we just add a poll to the topic asking whether we prefer Thief or Bandit? I'll take you up on that suggestion. I will be replying in more detail later on today, as I'm getting ready for work and I also work out of town today. However I would like to let everyone know I will be providing a counter point to this historically debated topic: the merits of allowing Thief to steal. But you're going out of town. We're going to wait until you leave and them ram through legislation making it illegal to steal! Death penalties all around! And then, when you get back, we're going to shout you down when you object to our shenanigans!  Basically, we're going to do what the US did when the USSR boycotted the UN. |
|
|
|
Post by Diethe on Apr 27, 2013 7:33:29 GMT -6
So I thought of a compromise that would prevent taking away hard earned items from players at the same time allow players who want to continue playing as a thief and its gameplay to enjoy being one. Not only that, but to be useful to the party? With this solution we would also be taking away the mechanic some of us dont agree with; which is the taking of player property.
So how about we instead take from FF9 mechanics? How about instead of a 'Steal X' slot there's merely Steal and Mug? (Mug which causes slight damage, depending on Speed and some other stat) However, instead of actually stealing something solid from that person, an item from a random list of items are chosen (depending on the level). Level 1-3 for example snags some cool potions or antidote, etc etc. The same way Zidane steals from mobs and bosses and snags random items. The chances would still be a bit low (Maybe 30-50%) but it would allow the thief to continue on and even make money along the way selling to the market their loot or to party members.
Of course, certain bosses and boss battles would have their own treasure you can steal from and not randomly chosen. Big-name NPCs would have their important loot of course, and that's where the thief is needed in-party.
Meanwhile, we could have other abilities that impair the use of weapons in battle but not steal them away personally like 'Hamstring', 'Wrist Cut' or something.
|
|
Schwerpunkt
Power Gamer
Who would ever want to be king?
Posts: 422
|
Post by Schwerpunkt on Apr 27, 2013 7:41:05 GMT -6
While I do like that idea, it begs the question of why even bother. When you get right down to brass tacks, Zidane's ability to steal items was really only useful in very specific circumstances -- mostly because the developers put mobs that were worth robbing into the game. It was also a fairly cheap way to replenish things like potions and such.
Simply put, it doesn't have a lot going for it. It's an interesting ability, yes -- I would love for the Bandit to have Mug -- but it's not big enough to base an entire class concept around. The majority of the class's utility is going to have to come from other sources, sources that the traditional Final Fantasy Thief couldn't provide. Like Hamstring, as you suggest.
That's where Brigand comes in. He has an auxiliary capability to steal stuff, but he's very much about fighting -- and fighting dirty. For instance, I see exactly no reason to not give him a bunch of abilities that just revolve around kicking other characters in the balls, throwing dirt in eyes, and generally just being a scoundrel. That's interesting. It gives the class depth and at the same time it colors (but doesn't control) the character, making it easier for players to use as a jumping-off point for developing their PC. To shamefully steal from Ilium, it's a canvas.
|
|
|
|
Post by Diethe on Apr 27, 2013 7:52:40 GMT -6
Well, we can combine both our ideas and create that compromise of this class being some dirty scoundrel with the abilities I suggested concerning stealing stuff, being a utility player and on the side making money through those stolen items and being the party's item 'gatherer' as to speak. They're all pretty good ideas aye, hopefully one that we can all put to create this class.
As for the naming of the class itself, I suppose we should vote on it either way. We can either keep to tradition of naming it Thief or think of something else. I just dont see the need for a big fuss on the naming change of such a class when every other class has kept theirs and we should be discussing the abilities, heh. But anyway, it's one of the things I'm probably be going to be pushing for, at least as a personal preference.
|
|
Schwerpunkt
Power Gamer
Who would ever want to be king?
Posts: 422
|
Post by Schwerpunkt on Apr 27, 2013 8:31:35 GMT -6
There's a poll at the top. I obviously favor Bandit, I can suffer through having to call him Thief if necessary.
Alright, so assuming we have the "dirty fighter" angle, here are my thoughts.
Tier I
1 - Purloin - High chance of stealing an item from an enemy.
2 - Sprint - Move an additional 3 tiles in a given turn.
3 - Throw Brick - Little men throw stones; real men throw bricks. Ranged attack for 70% of regular damage at 4 tiles. 20% chance of knockback.
Tier II
4 - Wilting Rose - Impress a character of the opposite sex with your winning complexion and refined charms. Then stab them in the face. 25% chance to Charm.
5 - Misdirect - Convince an enemy to face in another direction. Range of 6, 2v1.
6 - Low Blow - Raise your opponent's pitch by an octave or three. Inflicts 70% damage with a 10% chance of interrupt.
Tier III
7 - Hamstring - Slash at the target's legs in an attempt to inflict Immobilize.
8 - Backstab - Attack the enemy in the back for 150% damage with a small chance to add a Hemorrhage effect for an additional 30% damage over three turns.
9 - Acrobatic Slash - Jump over a target in melee range, attacking him while you do so, dealing 80% damage. If the tile behind the target is occupied, the ability cannot be used.
Reaction
Sucker Punch - Just when the other thinks he has you cornered, punch him right in the trachea. Hard. 50% attack damage, 50% chance to knockback.
Dodge - Flat increase of 15% P-Ev.
Support
Mug - Every normal attack has a 15% chance of stealing a random item from the enemy.
Movement
Move +1
Scavenge - Move-Find-Item
Eh. Not too crazy about all of those. Thoughts?
|
|
|
|
Post by Diethe on Apr 27, 2013 8:48:12 GMT -6
You got Acrobatic Slash right. Casting time shall depend on distance from the target?
Backstab well, not sure if its gonna be an overpowered move depending on implementation, seeing as every turn every unit can move around and attack at the same time so I dunno..depends on how powerful the skills of other classes are, I guess.
Archer has an agility movement skill that gave it Move +1 and Jump +1. I remember the archer should'nt even have a bonus to move since it can shoot from quite farther.
The Mug being a support ability is alright I guess. It could also be an active skill though, so up to you. It's gonna be like randomly picking up stuff from each attack. No harm in that but I guess it pushes away the 'thieving' bit too much, eh? Either way, it won't be much apart from a few abilities. Won't be much of a 'primary stuff' for the class.
How about these abilities:
Tier 1:
Steal: Steal depending on a speed+stat formula. Around 10-40% max.
Tier 2:
Mug: 75% damage. Steal depending on a speed+stat formula. Around 20-45% max.
Support:
Cutpurse: 10% chance of stealing a random item from the enemy from normal attacks.
|
|
Schwerpunkt
Power Gamer
Who would ever want to be king?
Posts: 422
|
Post by Schwerpunkt on Apr 27, 2013 9:32:24 GMT -6
Well, the problem with that is that Mug is a direct upgrade to Steal. It's better than Steal in every single way. It logically follows that you will only use Mug -- you won't use Steal. This means that Steal is dead weight. And in a tier system where most classes have roughly 9 abilities (at least thus far), having 1 ability that's rendered defunct within its own class is problematic. Did your Zidane ever use Steal when he had the option to use Mug? When you weren't trying to steal from mobs he could one-shot, that is.
Steal shows up Purloin in my list, by the way. The reason Mug shows up separate is so that it gives you a lower rate of success, but it's always active (for balance reasons, it might have to be pushed down to 10% or even just 5%). If you want to steal something, Purloin is what you use. If you simply don't care, or if you're using a lot of regular attacks for whatever reason (say you're a Ninja), Mug is really useful.
But on a separate level, making Mug a Support ability means people now have to deliberately choose whether or not they use it. In this case, having Mug comes at the cost of other useful skills. Skills like the Equip: ____ ones, for instance. You now have to choose whether you, as a Thief/Brigand, would prefer to be able to passively steal with regular attacks (albeit with a lower success rate) or equip heavier armor and be a flying acrobatic suit of armor. Conversely, you will always have Purloin, if you're ever in a position to sacrifice a turn.
As for Acrobatic Slash, I wasn't thinking Jump-like. I was thinking more like physically jumping over a guy you're standing next to. It's to get behind people without having to run in a big circle (and it's assuming we use the Zone of Control system). By letting you completely bypass someone's ZoC, you make it much harder for tanks to tank you. That's appropriate, since they get all kinds of neat skills anyway.
|
|
|
|
Post by kablizzy on Apr 27, 2013 13:12:00 GMT -6
I think the only possible way that we could include a steal mechanic is if the success rate were on par with Death Sickle (10-15% or less, with diminishing returns). The big reason for stealing to exist is to take an item. The combat usage is secondary, if not tertiary. I could make a case for the concept of Thief to be "Steal an item, run away, sell that item," which as Schwer said, for a single player game is great, but for multi-player, we're gonna have that one troll who gets into battles with everyone just to jack their merchandise.
But then the issue comes up of how often we want it to work. If we make the success rate too low, there's never any reason for anyone to use it, and therefore, really no reason to include it in the game at all. If we make the success rate too high, then everyone's gonna go around having their stuff stolen, and the game may not be as much fun.
Now, the only counter I have to this is that I see stealing as a trade-off for combat usefulness. In battle, if you're trying to pickpocket your opponent, you're not contributing to not losing, and as a result, your chances of eating it are higher. Which, again, means that the option to steal or be combat-useful isn't really an option anyway - and brings us back to 'Steal is useless' or 'Steal is too useful'.
I basically included Steal and Mug as concepts to see if we can make it work, and I'd like to go down the road, at least for the beta, to see w hat we can come up with.
Anyway, I do like Thief being a mor CC-oriented class. Whereas Archer didn't quite fit, Thief / Bandit / Scoundrel / Vagabond / etc. strikes me as more of a dastardly, douchebag-type. A support character to Ninja's massive DPS capabilities. While this may include steal, I'll have to ponder on this a bit and see what side I'm gonna come down on. There's been quite a bit of discussion here, and I have to think it through a bit.
|
|
