Thief Development Thread

[Schwerpunkt]

I was running with the notion that Purloin would only apply to a generic pool of items (based upon the target's level, with notable NPCs have either good or unique loot) and would never, ever involve permanently stealing another player's items. As Mord said in another topic, that invariably leads to the complete collapse of the economic system of the game (which, let's face it, was pretty dreadful in FFT to begin with -- how many of you ended the game with over five million gil?).

Without the ability to permanently deprive an enemy of his sword, the Thief effectively becomes a useless character concept if all he does is steal. "I'm going to steal a sword from you!" Then he pulls a sword out of a pocket dimension while the Geomancer just looks at him, wondering what the Thief is smoking and if he can have any (because that's how Geomancers roll, mannnnn). It has no combat purpose whatsoever because it cannot degrade the enemy in any form -- it just wastes your turn(s).

This brings us to the question of "what can the Thief actually do?", which brought us to CC and utility with an auxiliary focus on damage. And in that context, he stopped being the Thief -- he became the Vagabond/Bandit/whatever.

[kablizzy]

I don't really care as much about naming - Thief, Bandit, Vagabond, but I'm going to abstain from voting for a bit until I get a bit more information on it.

And I'm definitely with you on the point that if all the Thief does is steal, he's basically useless - especially if the team then loses, the owners would get their stuff back anyway. And this is kinda the concept that we ran aground of at HoI - Thief as a Thief is just not okay for a PVP-based game. Actually, what say you guys to having the Steal ability there only usable against NPCs? I know it doesn't make much sense flavorfully, but it'd be a purely game-saving mechanic. I wouldn't mind a slightly higher success rate and having it work just on NPCs.

I dunno, just throwing ideas out there. Any other ideas of how Steal / Mug might be a valid ability set, at least in part? Also, how do we feel about the Thief disarming / breaking / Just being a general dick about other people's equipment?

[Schwerpunkt]

As I see it, disarming someone takes agility and training. Breaking their stuff takes sheer brute force. The Thief has neither. He's some rogue that probably grew up on the streets who may have the benefit of some limited military training by virtue of the complete Charlie Foxtrot that is the Fifty Years' War. So no, the Thief shouldn't get any of that.

And I think I like the idea of Purloin/Mug only applying to NPCs. I can live with a higher success rate in that case, too.

[Diethe]

We can either go with the NPC idea or go forth with the FF9 mechanics idea I put forward concerning stealing random items from a list using certain abilities. Thing about the FF9 mechanic is:

-Stealing is retained as a mechanic and gameplay that some of us might be looking to try. We already have different classes that basically does the same stuff; we have ninjas, knights, crowd control mages, etc. Why not make this a little bit different from others at the same time make it true to its name?
-Players wont lost their stuff to the thief. Which is basically the main issue we've been talking about since page 1.
-It doesn't have to be the primary purpose of the thief, just a few abilities concerning it.
-Thieves would actually have a 'sought after' role in the party if it is needed; as 'free item' gatherer or treasure obtainer from bosses.
-Applies to PCs AND NPCs. Though we could really discuss about it more. If Schwer doesnt agree with pulling out extra-dimensional potions from PCs, for example.

Anyway, disarming doesnt necessarily take 'training' per say. All it takes it agility and experience in distraction. Living in the slums learning the tricks of the trade of catching people's attention where it's needed then catching the person off guard basically is what thieves do for a living-for survival even. And that's what's great about the social differences. You already have knights, squires, mages training at noble academies. We're really downplaying the commoner side of the 50 years war so far and focused too much on one side of the war; the side you got to play through FFT and that's being a noble. Exile, but still a noble.

[kablizzy]

Now also, one last Devil's Advocate thing: We can replace Thief with Gambler. Dunno if I care for that idea, and I'll wait until Ilium weighs in on it, but it's something to think about anyway.

Also, I do only want one or two abilities concerning thievery, and I want them to be non-player related.

Edit: I've got a really good idea of where we want Thief to go. I'ma wait until Ilium weighs in, see what he would prefer, and then I'll edit up an updated build for everyone.

[Mordred]

Allowing Thieves to effectively pull Gil out of thin air is almost as bad as allowing Thieves to steal items from other characters.

You have to think about Gil the same way you think about XP and JP because all 3 serve the same purpose of making characters more powerful: no class has the power to randomly "create" XP, right?

[sunspawn]

Well, it could be a relatively minor amount that won't off-balance things too much - just the extra potion or two compared to others or something. Since stealing is not the base feature and thus should not be too heavily effecting(or was it affecting?) the PC.

[Mordred]

I'd prefer not to have any class capable of generating bonus loot for themselves, just on general principle. I'll grant, having Thieves that can't steal anything is kind of weird.

TBQH, I think it might be a good idea to discuss cutting the Thief and just having Ninjas, or merging them somehow. Let's compare the FFT classes:

53 [Thief]
==============================================================================
Warriors who can steal anything from anyone. Their skill and boldness are
legendary.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMAND SET: 0E STEAL | SPRITE: n/a
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EQ: Knife, Hat, Clothes, Accessory
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HPM: 90 | MPM: 50 | SpM: 110 | PAM: 100 | MAM: 60 | Move: 4 | C.Ev: 25%
HPC: 11 | MPC: 16 | SpC: 90 | PAC: 50 | MAC: 50 | Jump: 4 | TYPE: Generic
==============================================================================
Thieves: 1 knife, Steal Equip, Steal Heart, Caution, Gilgame Heart, Catch, Secret Hunt, Move+2, Jump+2, light equips, high mobility and speed.


59 [Ninja]
==============================================================================
Combatant who hides as a means of battle. Can 'Throw' weapons at distant
enemies. 2-sword ability
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMAND SET: 14 THROW | SPRITE: n/a
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EQ: Knife, Ninja Sword, Flail, Hat, Clothes, Accessory
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
INNATE: Two Swords
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HPM: 70 | MPM: 50 | SpM: 120 | PAM: 120 | MAM: 75 | Move: 4 | C.Ev: 30%
HPC: 12 | MPC: 13 | SpC: 80 | PAC: 43 | MAC: 50 | Jump: 4 | TYPE: Generic
==============================================================================
Ninjs: 2 Ninja Swords, Throw, Sunken State, Two Swords, Move In Water, light equips, very high mobility and speed.

So Throw is out for obvious reasons, Steal is more or less out except for Steal Heart and perhaps a vestigial steal item... Ilium says Ninja Swords are out, which I'm fine with, so what we're left with are two classes without skill sets, both very speedy and mobile, except one of them has one knife and the other has two.

Thief + Ninja = Assassin?

[Schwerpunkt]

Make a base class called "Assassin" and people will flock to it in droves. This is the problem that most rogue or similar classes have in MMOs.

And both the Thief and Ninja have already been developed with very distinctive themes, roles, and skill sets. With the exception of the fact that both wear clothing in lieu of armor and both have high speed, they're nothing alike. Hell, at this point they have about as much in common as Knight and Lancer do, so any argument for merging them must also be applied to Knight/Lancer.

[Mordred]

Looking at the skill lists, I'd say they've got more in common than you suggest. Unless Backstab and Shadow Slash are much more different than they seem at first blush.

[Schwerpunkt]

Yes, both the Ninja and Thief have an ability that does more damage when you attack someone from behind. That doesn't mean the classes are the same. The Knight and Lancer both have an interrupt (granted, I actually want to cut the Lancer interrupt because it's imba as shit), but that doesn't make them the same class. Samurai and Ninja are both designed to fight MOJs rather than POJs, but that doesn't make them the same class.

I should also note that there's some shit on both lists that we never talked about. I have no idea why it's there and it really shouldn't be.

[Mordred]

Since the actual threads on the subject are apparently not reliable, could you give me a quick rundown on what the niches are for Ninja and Thief and how they differ?

[kablizzy]

What shit on what lists? Let's talk about them.

Mord: I'd prefer if we try and make the classes distinct first, and if we can't, then I think I'd be okay with talking merger, just as Squire / Chemist.

[Schwerpunkt]

May 1, 2013 19:47:51 GMT -6 kablizzy said:

What shit on what lists? Let's talk about them.

Mord: I'd prefer if we try and make the classes distinct first, and if we can't, then I think I'd be okay with talking merger, just as Squire / Chemist.

The Ninja skill list has shit like Bio Dust and the three elemental damage effects broadly representing those goofy little balls that you could throw in FFT. I'm sure there's other stuff. The Thief skill list has stuff like Steal Exp (which is hugely problematic), Flee, Hide, etc. that we never talked about. Then again, we never really finished Thief dev. We kind of got sidetracked. The Samurai one is crazy out of date, the Lancer one has stuff like Fire Breath (which I don't even get; how does that work with a POJ?), the Archer's about three skills over budget (since we were aiming for 9, near as I can tell), and I think that's about it.

Part of the problem is just how discussion tends to be all over the place and how we often find ourselves looping back to discuss tangential stuff (like the Ninja Knives thing). But it just seems like those first posts are either not updated consistently or, if we're seeing a situation where you're adding stuff, you're being too much of a ninja with your edits and we're not seeing what you've changed/added/whatever.

[kablizzy]

Oh, yeah. Unless we specifically decide on certain abilities being 100% out, I leave 'em in until discussion is through (Mostly for Ilium's sake), and add in your build suggestions so we can cut 'em down from there. Anything we don't discuss will always stay up as an option until otherwise decided.

In terms of individual stuff - Samurai, I just haven't gotten to yet. That one's way, way out of date. Lancer's Fire Breath was never discussed, and it's canonical, so I leave it up as an option until otherwise. Thief and Ninja, I'm still waiting on Ilium's input for both.

I'll give a quick run-through of each class and do some updating here.