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Post by kablizzy on Apr 22, 2013 1:05:47 GMT -6
This thread is for all discussions related to the Knight. The following is the most updated list we have for Knight thusfar. Further discussion can be found here. Original FFT build can be found here. Battle Skill
| Ability | Description | Range | Effect | Speed | JP | | Defend | Assume a cautionary position.
Success: Auto
System: Doubles the Knight's P-EV until next turn. CT resets at 20 instead of 0.
| 0 | 1 | Now | 0 | Challenge
| Goads an enemy into attacking the knight.
Success: [Brave-20]% (Provoke)
System: Chance to inflict Provoke.
| 3 | 1 | Now
| 150
| Honor Strike
| Face your foe directly and attempt to inflict him.
Success: 100% (Hit Rate)
System: Turns target to face. Ignores P-EV. [Brave+15]% Damage.
| Melee
| 1 | Now
| 200
| Shield Bash
| Use the shield as a weapon to create space between your opponent.
Success: [Brave+20]% (Hit Rate) / 50% (Knock Back) / 10% (Interrupt)
System: Must have Shield equipped to use. 60% Damage, 50% Chance of Knock Back, 10% chance to Interrupt charging abilities.
| Melee
| 1 | Now
| 250
| | Reckless Strike | Strike your foe with extreme prejudice.
Success: 75% (Hit Rate)
System: +50% Damage, Self Add: Unbalanced.
| Melee | 1 | Now | 350 | | Cleave | Knight Slashes through his opponents, cleaving them in twain.
Success: 100% (Hit Rate) / 20% (Hemorrhage)
System: Must have Sword equipped to use. Inflicts 65% damage. Will not strike blocked opponents.
| Melee | 2 | Now | 450 | Disarm
| Strike your opponent to try and knock their weapon away.
Success: 90% (Hit Rate) / 40% (Disarm Weapon)
System: 60% Damage, 40% Chance to Disarm affected unit's Weapon.
| Melee
| 1 | Now
| 500
| | Debilitating Slash | Slash at your foe, rending their ability to fight.
Success: 65% (-1 PA)
System: -1 PA. | Melee | 1 | Now | 500 | | Braver | Stand boldly and slash your opponents to pieces.
Success: 100% (Hit Rate)
MP: 15
System: [Brave*1.25]% damage. | Melee | 1 | Now | 650 | Climhazzard
| Take advantage of your enemy's weakness.
Success: 50% (Hit Rate)
System: Inflict HP Damage equal to amount target has already received, until target HP is reduced to 1. Does not KO target.
| 2
| 0
| 20
| 750
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3800 Reaction| Name | Description | Trigger | JP | Parry
| Block physical attacks with the equipped weapon.
Success: Auto
System: Add equipped Weapon's Evade to Knight's main evade stat.
| Physical Attack | 200 | | Cover | The Knight intervenes, taking the damage for a nearby ally.
Success: Auto
System: Any attack within range that would reduce an ally to Critical status or KO is instead redirected to the Knight.
| Critical HP (Ally) | 500 |
700 Support| Name | Description | JP | | Equip Shield | Equip a shield, regardless of Job.
Success: Auto
System: Unit is able to equip shields. | 200 | | Steel Resolve | Physical attacks fall to the wayside, but the Knight becomes more susceptible to Magickal attacks.
Success: Auto
System: -10% Physical Damage received, +15% Magick Damage received
| 250 | | Braveheart | +1 Temporary Brave each turn of combat | 400 |
850
Movement| Name | Description | JP | Slow March
| Approach the enemy carefully.
Success: Auto
System: -1 Speed, +15% Evade
| 300 | | Move-Brave UP | Every turn the Knight moves forward, +1 Brave. | 400 |
700 6050 JP |
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Schwerpunkt
Power Gamer
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Posts: 422
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Post by Schwerpunkt on Apr 22, 2013 1:15:39 GMT -6
First Aid should either be much higher in the tree or a Support ability (since, if you're not a tank, neither Braveheart nor Full Defense benefit you).
Magic Rend interrupting spellcasting would be cool. Especially if Shield Bash does a knockback and/or CT delay.
We can always add a Reckless Strike (-20% Accuracy, +50% Damage) ability as a high-risk, high-reward nuke at the end of the tree.
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Post by kablizzy on Apr 22, 2013 1:53:24 GMT -6
Edited in suggestions and one more of Ilium's ability suggestions (Even though I hate it).
Edit: Removing Subdue, First Aid (Squire and Chemist have more legitimate claims to it, in my eyes), Power Rend, Maybe Magic Rend, Critical: Block, and moving some of the Equips to Squire are all high on my list.
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Post by Ilium on Apr 22, 2013 14:53:31 GMT -6
Battle Skill
| Ability | Description | Range | Effect | Speed | JP | Provoke
| Goads an enemy into attacking the knight.
Success: 75% (Hit Rate) / 25% (Beserk)
System: Affected unit moves to use attack command on Knight during their next turn. 25% chance to inflict Beserk.
| 0
| 0
| Now
| 150
| Honor Strike
| Face your foe directly and attempt to inflict him.
Success: 90%
System: Must be facing affected unit's front. +15% Damage
| Melee
| 0
| Now
| 250
| Shield Bash
| Use the shield as a weapon to create space between your opponent.
Success: 90% (Hit Rate) / 50% (Knock Back) / 25% (Confuse)
System: Must have Shield equipped to use. -10% Damage, 50% Chance of Knock Back, 25% chance to Confuse.
| Melee
| 0
| Now
| 300
| Defend
| Assume a cautionary position.
Success: Auto
System: Doubles the Knight's Evade until next turn. CT resets at 20 instead of 0.
| 0
| 0
| Now
| 350
| Disarm
| Strike your opponent to try and knock their weapon away.
Success: 90% (Hit Rate) / 40% (Disarm Weapon)
System: 60% Damage, 50% Chance to Disarm affected unit's Weapon.
| Melee
| 0
| Now
| 500
| Rend Magick
| Disrupt a spellcaster's concentration.
Success: 50%
System: Reduces target MP by half, rounded up. If target is charging a spell, -15 CT.
| Melee
| 0
| Now
| 700
| Cleave
| Strike your foe with extreme prejudice.
Success: 75%
System: +50% Damage, -10% Evade
| 0
| 0
| Now
| 750
| Expert Guard
| A technique that reduces the target's magickal attack power.
Success: Auto
System: Receive 75% damage until next turn. Nullifies next status ailment.
| 0
| 0
| Now
| 900
| Climhazzard
| Take advantage of your enemy's weakness.
Success: 50%
System: Inflict HP Damage equal to amount target has already received, until target HP is reduced to 1. Does not KO target. Inflict MP Damage equal to 50% of attack command.
| 2
| 0
| 20
| 1100
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This is a good representation of what I like so far, from what we have come up with. I like the addition of Climhazzard, for the exact reason that it brings to mind Cloud and Steiner. It is a memorable ability from the Final Fantasy universe, and could be a connection some of the players make with the Final Fantasy setting, who might not be particularly familiar with Tactics. I've gone into detail about the success rate and system effects of each ability, tell me what you guys think about what I've come up with. Note that success rate and system effects won't ever be completely ready until they are put through the beta, we can only assume reasonable equations for now. Same with final JP costs. This skill set totals 9 abilities at 5000 JP. Depending on what we plan to do with Climhazzard, we could afford to add one or two more skills.
Reaction| Name | Description | Trigger | JP | Parry
| Block physical attacks with the equipped weapon.
Success: Auto
System: Add equipped Weapon's Evade to Knight's main evade stat.
| Physical Attack | 200 | Critical: Haste
| Release your final actions with a burst of energy.
Success: Auto
System: Add Haste to Knight
| Critical HP
| 700
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| Name | Description | JP | | Equip Armor | Equip helms and armor, regardless of Job.
Success: Auto
System: Unit is able to equip Armor.
| 500 | | Braveheart | The Knight is rash beyond his wisdom.
Success: Auto
System: -10% Physical Damage, +15% Magick Damage
| 250 |
Movement| Name | Description | JP | Slow March
| Approach the enemy carefully.
Success: Auto
System: -1 Speed, +15% Evade
| 500 | Route Step
| Disregard hazardous terrain in order to reach the objective.
Success: Auto
System: Shield and Armor must be equipped. +1 Speed
| 750 |
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Schwerpunkt
Power Gamer
Who would ever want to be king?
Posts: 422
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Post by Schwerpunkt on Apr 22, 2013 15:33:50 GMT -6
The Knight already has a really crappy move rating (what, 3 tiles with relatively little vertical climb?) and reducing his move by one further is a significant penalty. Remember, having lower move means it's harder to get into position, it's harder to keep up with the other guys, and it's harder to be where you need to be to break faces. And, against PCs with ranged attacks, they can ruthlessly kite you if you have low Move. An Archer with 4 Move, for instance, would eat a Slow March Knight for lunch unless that Knight was somehow able to corner him via terrain.
-1 Speed for +15% P-Ev is a fair trade, really. It makes him much more resistant to melee attacks but vastly more vulnerable to ranged attackers. And, hell, at 2-3 Move you may not even be able to move out of a summon's radius.
I don't get Braveheart. Why does the Knight get a +magic damage ability? The description makes it sound like it should just be +damage.
Critical: Haste doesn't really work with the Knight. I'd rather call the ability 'Adrenaline Surge' or something, and the response to going into Critical mode is that you instantly get the next turn regardless of CT. That's less unbalanced in duels (where getting Haste could give you an extra 2-3 turns if the dude can't finish you) and it better fits the martial theme. Alternatively, having the reaction ability just increase the Knight's CT by 10 is also an interesting possibility. Although that could lead to some hilarious situations where he's getting hit by lots of low-damage attacks and just winds up being ridiculously fast. One does not simply needle a Knight to death.
Cleave, I think, should be aoe damage more than just +damage. As described, it sounds horribly overpowered. Just a wild swing hitting three targets itself is pretty spectacular.
I could see a final skill being derived from Braver, where the Knight just runs forward and does this ridiculous overhand attack for a ton of damage. Adding a movement element makes it less ideal for tanks and helps reduce any problems caused by kiting.
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Post by Ilium on Apr 22, 2013 16:07:37 GMT -6
The Knight already has a really crappy move rating (what, 3 tiles with relatively little vertical climb?) and reducing his move by one further is a significant penalty. Remember, having lower move means it's harder to get into position, it's harder to keep up with the other guys, and it's harder to be where you need to be to break faces. And, against PCs with ranged attacks, they can ruthlessly kite you if you have low Move. An Archer with 4 Move, for instance, would eat a Slow March Knight for lunch unless that Knight was somehow able to corner him via terrain. -1 Speed for +15% P-Ev is a fair trade, really. It makes him much more resistant to melee attacks but vastly more vulnerable to ranged attackers. And, hell, at 2-3 Move you may not even be able to move out of a summon's radius. Agreed. That was supposed to read differently.  I will edit it. It was supposed to say you receive less physical damage, and more magick damage. Lifted from Eisenport. So the first part you described would literally translate to a function that is equal to Critical: Quick. That could be more useful, yes. The second one is interesting as well. Would we rather the Knight get the equivalent to Critical: Quick, or permanent +10 CT? Of these two abilities, which one could we see fitting in another job just as well or better than the Knight? Yeah here I was struggling with making the Success rate 50%, 60% or 75%. I was trying to create a high powered single attack for the Knight, but we could go with PBAoE. Did you have Zwerchau [Knight delivers a wide horizontal blow to all targets he is facing. -5% accuracy, -20% damage, hits up to 3 targets directly in front of the knight.] in mind? |
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Post by kablizzy on Apr 22, 2013 16:15:11 GMT -6
Agreed on the Move thing. -Speed it is.
Braveheart was intended to be -10% received damage, and +15% received Magic damage, no?
Time Mage has Critical: Quick, and I'd prefer to keep it on Time Mage, since it makes really awesome sense there. Critical: Haste is indeed a weaker ability, but we're well over on skills and can cut some with ease.
I do like Climhazzard, it's a standard Knight ability, and gives them a decent option for damage. I also always saw Climhazzard as that Braver ability, just a ridiculous cleaving of the entire body.
I'm gonna be out to a movie, but looking at Ilium's latest build, I'm 95% with that. Gonna go over it a bit and comment once more, but that looks really, really good.
Be around later!
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Schwerpunkt
Power Gamer
Who would ever want to be king?
Posts: 422
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Post by Schwerpunkt on Apr 22, 2013 17:17:52 GMT -6
Basically, Zwerchau was "I'm going to swing at all of these dudes and, if I hit them all, I'm going to do stupidly high damage." If you saw my post on weapon types, Zwerchau was basically a claymore without the damage drop off. It was to make multi-target tanking more viable and give the Knight a bit of aoe damage, since he otherwise isn't getting any.
I think I'm with Blizzy in just cutting it. We're crazy over the JP limit right now and it doesn't really do much for the class' lore.
I have an alternative I'll get into below.
oic. Yeah, that's a lot more reasonable.
Now, Expert Guard. I can't see any reason I'd take this. In addition to being really expensive, it's just not as good as Defend. Defend (which lets your next turn come faster) doubles Ev (P-Ev only or both?), which will probably translate into more mitigation than Expert Guard does. Basically, the only thing it does is let you dodge status effects. While that's useful, it's not worth losing 100% of your damage output on a turn and a 900 JP price tag.
Instead, as my replacement for Critical: Haste, we'd have Shield Mastery (name may change). Basically, it works as a normal reaction ability (Brave as %), but instead of giving you a chance to block or dodge or whatever, it gives you 200% of the shield's P-Ev and M-Ev as damage reduction. If you've got the Sexy Shield that gives you 30 P-Ev and 15 M-Ev, you now absorb 60% of all incoming physical damage and 30% of all incoming magical damage if the ability procs. The trade-off is that your P-Ev and M-Ev are set to 0. You can never dodge/parry/block an attack, but you can seriously reduce the amount of damage those attacks cause. Naturally, this reaction ability is best used when you don't have a main hand weapon with high P-Ev/M-Ev. And, naturally, you're SOL if you decide to use a Claymore instead. Note that this doesn't apply to periodic damage, so poison would still tick for 100%.
As a replacement for Expert Guard (since that's becoming a Support ability and changing drastically), I'd just go with something like 'Artery Strike,' which adds the Hemorrhage status effect that does damage over time (think Poison, but this time physical damage). Basically, you'd poke them for 80% damage, then they'd bleed for half that damage over three turns. In effect, you've dealt 120% damage, only you haven't front-loaded all of it.
I also wanted to use Hemorrhage as a status effect on the Fencer, but we haven't gotten that far yet.
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Post by kablizzy on Apr 22, 2013 23:54:56 GMT -6
As of this post, I've edited the first post, and even with removing Expert Guard, Critical Haste, and Route Step, we're still at 5900+ JP for class mastery. Of course, now I'm going to suggest we talk about costs, and bring some of these costs down a tad. I would like to see another "attack" ability, and perhaps a DoT attack like Artery Strike would be good. If we can get costs down to a reasonable point, I'd like to discuss that happening.
I also agree that Cleave would be cool AoE damage for Knight. I'd say ~35% - 50% damage for each target, up to three?
Like Schwer said elsewhere, I'd like to see a couple cheaper abilities for the basic classes. Climhazzard at 1000+ is a bit much. I can see that exist in the 700-950 range.
Also, something we've yet to discuss is costing. I've noticed Ilium enjoys even 50's, whereas I enjoy mixing up a couple abilities and costing one or two at x20, x30, etc. Any preferences here?
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Schwerpunkt
Power Gamer
Who would ever want to be king?
Posts: 422
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Post by Schwerpunkt on Apr 23, 2013 0:20:18 GMT -6
Climhazzard is just way, way too expensive. If we aim at 4 JP per XP, it'll take you over two levels to accumulate enough JP to buy it. That's not something I want to do unless we're talking about the wtf-good prestige class abilities (like Galaxy Stop or something).
Revised.
Active Abilities: 4,500 JP
Reaction Abilities: 500 JP
Support Abilities: 500 JP (useful to Knight), 1,200 JP (total)
Movement Ability: 500 JP
Total cost to master class: 6,000 JP
Total value of skills useful to Knight primary: 6,000 JP
Total value of all class skills: 6,700 JP
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Post by kablizzy on Apr 23, 2013 2:01:02 GMT -6
Actually, I've got time now while the cat is out. First, costs. I'd like to see a bit more variation in costs for your build, even if it's +20, -30, and so on. Something about things having the same cost bugs me in multiples. Dunno what. Other than that, costs are really similar to what I have on mine, so if we can find a happy in-between spot, perhaps discuss what costs would be better suited to each of these, we can start finalizing. We'll see what Ilium says tomorrow and try and get a consensus. Abilities!
Juggernaut is really cool. Neat addition.
Still iffy on Cover / Intervene. Weird skill, definitely.
Quick Strike / Disarm - Tomato, Potato. Don't care about naming much here. Just like the more straightforward naming of Disarm, I suppose.
Debilitating Strike is also neat. Don't like the number of "Strike" names. I suppose redundancy bugs me? Weird epiphany.
Guard Stance - Don't like it. Not sure why. Maybe its similarity to Expert Guard / Full Defense, and my aversion to those? Eh.
Equips - Don't care here. Not a fan of the two-in-one equip skill. We can ship these off to Squire, if nothing else.
Also, edited a couple cost reductions into my original post for you guys to look over. I'll go into depth on Schwer's new build tomorrow.
Edit: Just had a great brainstorm around Cover. Make it either a reaction ability or a Support ability. If it's a support ability, any ally within X range gets one of a few things - +% to P-ev, a higher chance to use their own reaction ability, or an additional chance to use the Knight's reaction ability, or a chance for the knight to parry that attack. All of these would trigger on an ally receiving critical damage.
The other version of Cover is also triggered on an ally receiving critical damage. If that ally is within X range, the Knight takes the damage instead.
Both of these are quick and easy and not as messy as Cover being an active ability. Thoughts?
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Schwerpunkt
Power Gamer
Who would ever want to be king?
Posts: 422
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Post by Schwerpunkt on Apr 23, 2013 2:19:29 GMT -6
I'll be honest: I can live with pretty much any of these. It will, ultimately, come down to difficulty programming. And while I have a modest grasp of coding, I don't actually have enough to make a fully informed decision on how complicated it would be to code these things. So, as far as I'm concerned, Ilium should be the one to pick what Cover does.
If the prevalence of the word "strike" bothers you, we can use a different term. But I wanted a verb that was neutral. "Thrust" and "bludgeon" are both weapon-specific. "Strike" isn't. Since I don't know whether or not flails will be in the game (I honestly can't see why; they were pretty terrible in FFT), I just went with the neutral "strike."
Guard Stance is just about mitigation. In FFT, it's all or nothing. Either you parry the attack or you don't. By making damage less spikey, it makes the Knight a better tank (thanks to predictability).
And I'd rather just keep the skill costs as-is. It establishes clear tiers within the skillset. Adding or subtracting 20-30 doesn't really change that, but it does make the class look less consistent. I, personally, don't see much benefit to that. And if you have OCD, you'd probably appreciate the 9 active skills being divided into 3 sub-groups, each with a fixed cost.
Equips aren't a primary skill. Rather, they're intended to allow someone who doesn't have the base equips that a Knight does (which are pretty generous) to more effectively utilize the Knight's skillset. If you take a Monk primary and then the Knight secondary, for instance, you literally cannot use any of the abilities that involve a shield. That, in turn, means most of the Knight's defensive skills are either seriously degraded or just completely gone.
Also, I deliberately omitted Equip: Claymore. I prefer for that to be restricted solely to Knights and Samurai.
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Post by kablizzy on Apr 23, 2013 13:20:09 GMT -6
Weren't flails entirely randomized?
We can work on costs after getting a clear skillset. I dunno what exactly bugs me about stuff having the same / similar cost, just feels wrong.
Your equip argument is 100% valid. Equip Shield is probably the most important one for Knight, in that regard. And if we have to cut anything, that's the one I'd prefer to leave in-tact. I'ma update our first post here with some changes, and then when Ilium gets around, he can weigh in.
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Post by kablizzy on Apr 23, 2013 14:16:12 GMT -6
So, three more things, regarding Knight.
First, success rates. Are all success rates going to be static, or as weapon?
Secondly, we have to figure out which of these will require a sword / claymore, and which won't. Obviously, cleaving with a flail or bow is just silly.
Thirdly, JP costs. We'll have to work those out eventually. All of these are just in there as placeholders, and to give an idea of where the ability will likely fall in the tree.
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Schwerpunkt
Power Gamer
Who would ever want to be king?
Posts: 422
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Post by Schwerpunkt on Apr 23, 2013 14:53:39 GMT -6
Flails, axes, and bags all had lots of RNG. The exact formula was (RAND BETWEEN: 1, WP)*PA. As you can imagine, they got progressively worse as levels went up.
I wanted all the abilities to be usable by anyone. If we start saying "you must have a sword to use this," you just make the class less viable as a secondary. I expect the shield stuff to require a shield (because there are fairly few classes that can actually equip one and they're all quasi-tank candidates anyway), but I don't want everything to require specific weapons. Knights, after all, are not prestige classes. They shouldn't have weapon requirements. That said, if someone uses Equip Rod or something, they'll probably suck terribly anyway.
For Reaction abilities, I figured (Brave)% for most. That's the usual formula and if our characters float around 60-70 of Brave (which is doable if you sign up with the intention of making a fighter), they'll proc frequently but not all the goddamn time (like Wiegraf's Counter did). Guard Stance would probably require 2(Brave)% to work, though, since it has to be active all the time to have a meaningful effect.
And I didn't expect abilities to be 100%, no. I figured they'd just work off the Knight's regular accuracy unless noted otherwise. Except Honor Strike, which is basically the "no, you are not dodging me, you goddamn ninja" attack.
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Battle Skill
