Knight Development Thread

[kablizzy]

I like Honor Strike for that exact reason, actually. I can see the ninja flipping around and hopping about, and the Knight just going, "C'mere, you little twerp..." and smacking him across the face with the flat side of his sword.

I can get behind the abilities being usable by anyone too. Just kinda didn't make sense to cause a hemorrhage with a harp or something. But keep in mind that there are a few classes that will have those requirements (Archer, Samurai, etc.), but those classes that do should have Equip: Bow, Equip: Katana in their tertiary skillset to offset.

I'm good with the Reaction formula, I was meaning more the standard attack skillset. Some of them are set to a static 75, 90%, etc. where P-Ev was generally used in the attack formula. Just double-checking numbers here.

[Schwerpunkt]

As I see it, taking Knight as your secondary is to let you either gain the ability to tank or just be better at it (because, for example, I expect Lancers and Samurai to have an auxiliary capacity for it). Given that, I don't want a lot of weapon requirements. If we just set the range 1v1 (or so), that also reduces the odds of someone using a ranged weapon (like a harp or gun) to use these abilities. And it does so without actually tacking on requirements like "Must have a sword, spear, or waffle iron to use."

It's probably time to open discussion on the next classes. I recommend Lancer, Archer, and Thief.

[kablizzy]

I actually just got done compiling Samurai abilities from other Final Fantasies, and I was looking through Archer stuff as you were posting. Lancer and Thief are also cool.

[kablizzy]

Looking this over, I'm thinking that perhaps Rend Magick should either go to Ninja / Samurai, or we should find another use for it. Rend PA, perhaps?

[Schwerpunkt]

I don't see the problem leaving it here. The Knight tends to have at least one ability for every enemy as-is. He's our Batman.

[kablizzy]

That works, just didn't want it to overlap overly much with Ninja / Samurai.

[Ilium]

Weapon: Swords, Flails, Knight Swords
Helmet: Helmets
Armor: Armor, Robes
Shield: Yes
Move Rate: 3
Jump Rate: 3
Speed: 8
Evade: 0%
Attack: 5 +1/(4)Level
Magic: 3 +1/(8)Level
HP: 54 +16/Level
MP:16 +1/Level
Secondary Bonus: HP + 15, PA +1
Tertiary Bonus: HP + 5

This is what we are working with as far as stats, directly lifted from HoI. There are obviously some glaring issues with how they handle stat growth, which has been detailed earlier in the combat thread. One of the main things that needs to change is HP/MP growth. +1 MP in this case isn't bad, however the +16 HP is unacceptable.

HP	Level 1	Level 5	Level 15	Level 25	Level 50
+6	54	84	144	204	354
+7	54	89	159	229	404
+8	54	94	174	254	454
+16	54	134	294	454	854

Our first order of business is deciding upon a modifier to substitute +16 out with. The original growth rate is provided as a comparison. Personally, the Knight is still a tank, so +8 I think is reasonable. That is still cutting the original growth rate in half and provides us with a more realistic base stat build. Plus it is easier to recognize if something is too overpowered other than underpowered sometimes, so we could notice any problems faster in the beta.

I have a lot more to add, but I will leave it with this question right now, as I'm tired and this wine is starting to get to my concentration....

[kablizzy]

The reason growth rates for HP were so high, you'll notice that if we have 15 classes (HoI had, what, 24?), then if you want to represent Knight as the best Tank class with the best HP in the game, you necessarily have only 6 other choices for every other class in the game to choose from. So, HP growth necessarily turns into this:

+8 HP: Knight, Monk
+7 HP: Samurai, Lancer
+6 HP: Geomancer, Archer
+5 HP: Thief, Squire
+4 HP: Red Mage, Performer
+3 HP: Ninja, Summoner
+2 HP: Calculator, Oracle
+1 HP: Wizard, Priest, Time Mage

Where you can't necessarily justify Archers having the same HP growth as Geomancers, but they fall into the same growth cycle regardless. Also, if you multiply each of these by the levels you have above;

Class	HP	Level 1	Level 5	Level 15	Level 25	Level 50
Knight, Monk	+8	54	86	166	246	446
Samurai, Lancer	+7	50	78	147	217	392
Geomancer, Archer	+6	46	70	132	192	342
...	+...	...	...	...	...	...
Wizard, Priest, Time Mage	+1	35	39	49	59	84

Basically, you just get smaller differences in class effectiveness. If you're taking Knight for their massive HP growth, you can just as easily take a Samurai or Lancer and do almost the same thing. Anyway, just putting this out there so we're aware.

[kablizzy]

May 2, 2013 7:09:58 GMT -6 Schwerpunkt said:

I don't see the problem leaving it here. The Knight tends to have at least one ability for every enemy as-is. He's our Batman.

May 2, 2013 18:16:22 GMT -6 Schwerpunkt said:

We're probably going to have to go back and tweak the Knight given how much anti-magic stuff has cropped up with the Samurai/Ninja. Rend Magic really strikes me as just further stacking the deck against the MOJs. But that's for another topic.

What side are you tending towards here?

[Schwerpunkt]

I'm thinking that a given class should have, on level up, a grand total of 12 points to distribute. Based on what that class's role is, we divide it up accordingly. This also has a simple effect of making it easy to deduce where the other value is. If you level up and gain 6 MP, you know that 12 - 6 = 6 and that you get 6 HP as well. It's internally consistent.

+10 HP: Knight
+9 HP: Nobody
+8 HP: Monk, Samurai,
+7 HP: Lancer, Archer, Squire, Geomancer
+6 HP: Spellsword
+5 HP: Mediator, Performer
+4 HP: Oracle, Calculator
+3 HP: Time Mage, Summoner
+2 HP: Wizard, Priest



The PA/MA scale would be roughly similar. At the top end of the HP chart, you've got 1 PA every 4 Turns and 1 MA every 8 turns. At the very bottom, you've got the exact opposite. Somewhere around the middle, you've got 1 of each every 6 turns (which fits the Spellsword). The two variables scale to varying degrees in between.

Note that, in the case of Thief/Ninja, the high Speed growth forces them to be penalized in other ways (namely having shoddy MA/PA/MP/HP growth), so they'd probably have separate growth rates entirely. I can see the Ninja getting +5 HP, +2 MP, 1/6 PA, 1/8 MA, and 1/8 Speed (assuming, for instance, that 1/12 Speed is the normal growth rate). For Thieves, I'd expect a bit less squishy but also a bit less speed: +7 HP, +2 MP, 1/5 PA, 1/7 MA, 1/9 Speed.

Archer/Squire are a similar special case. I was thinking they'd have slightly higher speed growth than the rest of the guys (so, maybe 1/10 instead of 1/12), and in return they'd put up with globally slower growth: 1/6 PA, 1/8 MA, +7 HP, +3 MP. These guys are averaging 10 primary stat gains every level (instead of 12) and averaging 2 attribute gains every 7 levels (as opposed to 6), but they do get a significantly faster speed growth rate. I think it's a fair trade.

Note, again, that I'm not thinking we use fractions. It's shorthand. I just got tired of writing "on blank every blank levels."



So, the justifications for each slot.

Knight: He's a pure tank in the conventional sense. Maybe he has a dps spec, but he's first and foremost about surviving everything you throw at him.

Monk/Samurai: Since these guys don't actually use MP, they don't need very much of it; accordingly, their HP growth is higher (and their MP growth is lower). Because of this, their MA grows at slower rates than MP-using classes.

Lancer/Geomancer: These guys will probably use MA and MP (I'd hope the Lancer's fire breath uses MP, at any rate; he even gets an ability to restore some). We also know the Geomancer's traditional attacks involve using MA, so he'll want higher MA growth.

Spellsword (Red Mage): This guy firmly straddles two worlds. Accordingly, he's straight down the middle in everything. Matched HP/MP growth, matched PA/MA growth, regular speed growth.

Mediator/Performer: These guys use MP less than their counterparts, but they're distinctly not very physical (although the mediator will probably keep his gun). When we get to them, we'll have to give them MP-consuming abilities. At least one or two.

Oracle/Calculator: I have no idea how we're going to balance the Calculator, so I just plugged him in with the Oracle. The Oracle has higher HP (and therefore PA) growth than his more flimsy magi counterparts to represent the fact that he has a fairly strong direct damage component thanks to his poke-poke stick. Accordingly, his MP/MA growth is a bit slower.

Time Mage/Summoner: These guys stand roughly between the 'pure' casters and the Oracle. They're less physical than the Oracle and less magical than the Priest/Wizard. The Summoner is here, by the way, because he can both heal and damage in a fairly large area; giving him equal growth to the Wizard would render the Wizard useless.

Priest/Wizard: And here are your classic casters, the really flimsy guys that keep their buddies alive or else fry you with their pinpoint lightning strikes.





So, of the 16 classes we're working with now (I'm assuming we'll cut Calculator, but for now he's here), 4 of them have special considerations due to the fact that they don't fit perfectly into the same system as everyone else. However, I've accounted for that in what I think is a fairly balanced manner.

So crunch numbers, gentlemen, and see where we land.

[kablizzy]

Yup, this is basically exactly what I was thinking.

[Schwerpunkt]

Few changes.

1. Drop Rend Magic. We already have two POJs that can seriously wreck MOJs. I don't really don't think we need to give the Knight more anti-MOJ stuff.

2. In addition to adding Provoke as a chance-on-hit for Honor Strike (like we did for the Lancer's equivalent), change Provoke to Challenge and give it a range of 3.

3. Bump Defend up to a free skill for every Knight. This fits the theme of one free (mediocre) skill for every class.

4. Increase the application rate of Hemorrhage on Debilitating Slash or remove the accuracy penalty. As is, the chance of success is so slow it's not worth using.

With those changes, we're two attacks short. So I'd like to see:
1 - Reckless Strike. -15% chance to hit, +30% damage. The Knight doesn't really have a high direct damage ability and he could use one.

2 - Rending Strike. Something like 50% chance to hit and, if it hits, it reduces the target's PA by 2 (temporarily, obviously). So this has the dual purpose of giving the Knight an ability nobody else has (yet, at any rate) while simultaneously giving the Knight a very effective skill for use against other POJs.

[Mordred]

Cover and Defend seem thrown in just kind of as afterthoughts. Would it be possible or desirable to make "protecting allies" more of a central feature of the class?

[Schwerpunkt]

There really aren't that many options available to us for doing so. And I can't think of anything to add beyond Cover, taunts, and zone of control. I mean, maybe a Pull, but that's Samurai territory.

[Mordred]

Oooh, yeah, Zone of Control. Is that a default feature of all classes, or is it something we could give Knights as a Support or somesuch?

A pull wouldn't be a bad idea. If a Samurai is supposed to be a mage masher, do they really have a reason to have monopoly on that kind of thing?