Class Balancing

[Ilium]

Let's start trying to work out some of the balancing issues. I think right now a good point to cap classes would be in the 4500-6000 range, while trying to keep as many of the classes as close as possible.

Also another point that I would like to make, is perhaps balancing the differences between HP/MP, and PA/MA the same integer all throughout the classes. As in, with each class at start their HP and MP are all different, however both together would equal 75. Squire: HP 50 MP 25, Knight: 65/10, Mage 20/55 etc.. This would also apply to stat growth, and really would only account for the base starting stats, not what they will look like after stat modifiers take effect in character creation.

One more point, perhaps making at least one ability available to each class as a combat ability, making each one viable as a primary class for every aspect of the game. This will obviously be much easier for some classes than for others.

Any other suggestions I'd love to hear em. Also how do we want to work on classes? Do we want to assign classes to work on to different people, or do we want to work on them one at a time as a group?

[Schwerpunkt]

Assume we award roughly 4 JP for every 1 XP. Following this logic, a player will earn about 400 JP per level. This means that, by level 20, they'll have racked up ~8000 JP and by level 50 they'll have racked up ~20,000 JP.

If we aim to have a given class mastered by level 15 (assuming they spend JP only on that class), we're looking at an average class mastery cost of ~6,000 JP. Assume people get two of those classes, and one ~8,000 JP Awarded class), and they'll have a total pool of ~20,000 JP worth of skills. Assuming they only reach, say, level 30 (so a maximum of ~12,000 JP earned), they'll have plenty of options to choose from.

So I think most classes should have ~6,000 JP worth of stuff or ~8,000 if they're an awarded/master class.

Also, I'm not sure I even want the Calculator to be a base class. It can be obscenely powerful under the right conditions.

As for the individual classes, I think we should identify the class's primary and secondary job ("as a Lancer, you exist to jump on people and poke them from two tiles away; you have an auxiliary ability to equip a one-hand spear and shield to be a decent makeshift tank, but you'll never tank as good as the Knight"). Once that's done, and we ballpark their desired JP range (which, in most cases, is ~6,000), we then let people pitch ideas as they have them. If that means Bob wants to develop the entire Lancer class on his own, let him -- but then check it over to make sure it's not horribly broken (or horribly underpowered) relative to the other classes.

[kablizzy]

Okay, I've got a lot to add for Classes. I'ma go down the list a bit as we come across each clas and input what we had found from HoI development. I'll also be talking about Master Class counterparts here.

If we assign different classes to different people, things will get ugly (In terms of classes not being standardized). We had this problem during v2 dev, and Lion made a class, and Rutee made a class, and fire_i made a class, and none of them were FFT classes or HoI classes, and none of them made any sense whatsoever together. How we did classes during v1 and v2 is we ranked Physical and Magical classes, and put them in a table. The classes with better PA growth were the classes expected to be stronger - Lancer, Knight, Monk, Berserker, and then we scaled down to some of the Squire-tree options that felt more magick-y - Ninja, Geomancer, Mediator, and so on. We balanced each tree equally (Black Mage, Time Mage, Summoner at the top of the MA tree, with Red Mage, Shaman, etc. being at the more physical end), plotted them on an arc, and called it a day. I was in the middle of revamping the classes when Kairo decided to launch, so the classes that you see there are all roughshod.

Ideally, I would want to work on these one-at-a-time, as a group, with the overriding principle of being true to FFT and Final Fantasy being our guideline. We take classes one at a time, and we all give input, finalize the class, and then at the end, go back through and smooth out discrepancies.

Secondly, there are some FFT classes that don't fit in with the sim version that we have here. Chemist, Mediator, Thief, and the like are all good examples here. With that said, here are my analyses of what we had before.

I'ma open up discussion from the top of the list, with Squire:

Squire - We found Squire lacking in a ton of areas, mostly in growth rate. The way we got around this was by giving their Master Class as Hero. Anyone who stuck out Squire to Master it was rewarded with the Best Class in the Game. Hero had the best of both worlds, but I never got my hands dirty with Master Classes. Anyway, Squire was to be one of the weakest classes until Master, and then explode and out-grow everyone else (I think Hero had +1 PA /MA every 2 or 3 levels). I suppose the three keys we want to figure out are this:

1. What growth rates do we want to have (And to figure that out, I figure we'll need an idea of what power-level we want players at), and plot classes in those growth rates against each other - Figure out what a level 20, 30, 40 Samurai looks like, and make sure that's consistent with a level 20, 30, 40 Chemist and so on.

2. What makes each class different from the others? Why pick a Knight over a Black Mage?

3. What additional classes do we want access to? Red Mage, Black Wizard, Rune Knight, Berserker? Where do they fit? What classes go where?

Edit: two things to add on Schwer's post - Perhaps that should be Calculator's role? Powerful, but only in certain conditions?

Also, identifying a class's primary and secondary function is vital to this. For instance, Lancers are all about jumping. So, that should be reflected a lot in what they do. Also, if we are to have skills that effect RP stuff, that should be a benefit as well.

[Schwerpunkt]

I would actually like to cut the Squire entirely. It's a job that doesn't really do anything. It makes sense when you *need* to start with a specific class (since, y'know, Page -> Squire -> Knight was the logical feudal progression), but when you start talking about players that can conceivably start with any class, it doesn't make sense to keep it. It's just not at all interesting and most of its interesting skills are better off being spent elsewhere.

Take Dash for example, In-game, it's not that useful; Throne Stone is better in almost every regard (it does less damage, but you don't eat a counter attack that may be more damaging than your Dash damage). But if you put Dash on a class that has high speed (like Thief) and give it a very high chance of knocking the target back, you suddenly have an interesting character build (Thief jumps on roof, Dashes Wizard, Wizard falls, Wizard gets eaten by a chocobo).

[kablizzy]

Indeed. Although this is also why we changed a lot of the classes (And so dramatically). We saw exactly all of those and decided to make each class more interesting.

Anyway, doing away with Squire would likely mean that I'd like Chemist (In it's current form anyway) to go as well. Every player will be able to use items, I assume, and Chemist (And Alchemist) kind of defeat the purpose.

I also wanted to get a list of abilities and a list of classes for us to pick from - FFT / FFTA / FFTA2 classes, classes from the original FF games, and all of the differently-named abilities. I may work on this tonight and provide an exhaustive list here shortly.

[Schwerpunkt]

I think that the Chemist occupies a unique niche (whereas the Squire is just Knight-lite with some interesting skills). But it doesn't really need to be its own class. Especially if everyone can carry a potion or two into battle. If you really wanted to shoot someone, you'd go Mediator (and then Mediator-Ninja); if you really wanted to heal at range, you'd go Priest.

Wiki has an exhaustive list of all jobs used in Final Fantasy here. I'll copypasta it to save you a click.

2 Physical classes

2.1 Warrior
2.2 Monk
2.3 Samurai
2.4 Dragoon
2.5 Thief
2.6 Ninja
2.7 Dark Knight
2.8 Paladin
2.9 Hunter
2.10 Viking
2.11 Berserker
2.12 Mystic Knight
2.13 Onion Knight
2.14 Machinist
2.15 Freelancer
2.16 Gunner

3 Magical classes

3.1 Black Mage
3.2 White Mage
3.3 Devout
3.4 Summoner
3.5 Time Mage
3.6 Scholar
3.7 Green Mage
3.8 Sage
3.9 Alchemist

4 Mixed classes

4.1 Red Mage
4.2 Blue Mage
4.3 Geomancer
4.4 Bard
4.5 Beastmaster
4.6 Dancer
4.7 Gambler
4.8 Mime
4.9 Puppet Master
4.10 Memorist

[Ilium]

Don't have a lot of time to post right now so I'll make this quick.

At the very least I don't want to take Calculator, Squire, or any of the other classes off the table just yet. Despite what they might have looked like in the original game, we should be able to balance them to work in the sim. That also goes for every other class for that matter. I have no qualms with trying to get all the other classes balanced out before, but I believe before we decide to completely axe certain classes that they should be given a fair shake at getting updated and balanced before we scrap them. I feel all base classes from the game have something unique they could provide for the sim.

[kablizzy]

I can get behind that. I want to explore all avenues before taking things off the table as well. I'd suggest we make a list of potential basic classes / master classes and go from there. There are also a few suggestions I have for additional classes to be considered that aren't a part of that list.

Fencer / Rune Knight / Templar / Temple Knight - Rapier-wielding warriors, they inflict status ailments (or in the case of rune knights, elemental damage). I think this is a cool thing to explore. These are kinda awkwardly related, in that they all inflict status ailments, but Fencers are more agile and wear less armor. Concept still cool. Present in both v1 and v2 as a basic class.

Necromancer - Just like it says. The Necromancer has had a huge role in the FF series, and hasn't been included in lists like the above. Present in v1 as a unique class.

Pictomancer - I loved Relm's class, and I haven't seen it done since. Also, the concept of artists being able to paint in magic is intriguing.


Pirate / Sky Pirate / Corsair - It's been called a few things, but I like the concept of this. Often, it's been merged with Gambler, but I think the Gambler focuses more on slots and cards, whereas Pirate, I think we could do something unique with. Also present in v1 as a unique class.

Sentinel / Defender / Stalwart - We really don't have anything like this, and I love the idea. Just heavy armor, shittons of HP, and defense, defense, defense.

Illusionist - There are two ways to do these. We did one in HoI v2 to some success, but I think the way A2 does them is also cool. Kind of a spin-off of Dancers / Bards, but with some flavor, I think we can make these amazing. Present in v2 as a basic class.

Bishop - Bishops are awesome. They were present in FFT and FFTA/2, and their skillset and concept are well worth exploring.

Chocobo Knight - Schwer was wanting a mounted-only Awarded class, and I think this is a good starting point.

Shaman - We've done a few versions of Shaman, although the ones from the other Final Fantasy games were quite different. Present in v1 and v2.

And then, there are all the other FFT jobs that can be expanded upon - Astrologist, Cleric, Holy Knight, Divine Knight, etc. Those are all located in the Exhaustive thread as well, second post.

[Ilium]

Alright, so, Knight.

ffsim.proboards.com/post/6

So the very first priority when we are discussing our primary classes is what kind of role or niche we want that specific class to fill. In the case of the Knight I think that question is easy, its going to be the tank. So we should design the class in that regard.

An idea I had for all base classes, is they could perhaps follow a similar format. 10 Abilities, 1-2 Reaction, 1-2 Support,  and 1 Movement. If Reaction has 2 talents, Support would have 1 and vice versa. They would all also follow the same JP requirements, which will be detailed below in my proposed list of Knight classes.  This would all seem very formulaic, and it is, but it is perhaps the fairest way to try and balance each class off each other.  Every class using this template would have a possible 6,500 total JP worth of skills to accumulate, with Mastery of that class projected to be 4,500 JP.  With all that said, here is my proposed list of skills for Knight:

150 - Honor Strike (HoI)
250 - Subdue (FFTA)
300 - Intimidating Slash (HoI)
350 - Defense (FFTA2)
350 - Disarm Accessory (HoI)
500 - Disarm Shield (HoI)
750 - Disarm Weapon (HoI)
750 - Expert Guard (FFTA)
900 - Full Defense (HoI)
1100 - Survivalism (New - Something like Critical: Hastega, +1 PA, Shell)

100 - Weapon Guard (FFT)
200 - Counter (FFT)

300 - Equip Armor (FFT)

500 - Slow March (New - Something like -1 Speed, +15 Evade)



Up Next: Initial stats and stat growth for Knight.

Edit: Knight continued,


Weapon: Swords, Flails, Knight Swords
Helmet: Helmets
Armor: Armor, Robes
Shield: Yes
Move Rate: 3
Jump Rate: 3
Speed: 8
Evade: 0%
Attack: 5 +1/(4)Level
Magic: 3 +1/(8)Level
HP: 54 +16/Level
MP:16 +1/Level
Secondary Bonus: HP + 15, PA +1
Tertiary Bonus: HP + 5

Initial stat growth should perhaps follow a similar template to skills. I propose each primary begins with 70 points of HP and MP, divided among the two stats. PA and MA would follow a similar format, with 8 points divided between them. So:

HP: 54
MP: 16

Is already fine as that equals 70, and looks fine for base stats for Knight. So we will leave this alone.

PA: 5
MA: 3

Is also fine, as it equals 8. I would even consider making the argument for PA: 6 MA: 2


Now for stat growth. Following the same template, we make PA/MA growth 12 levels, divided. HP/MP, 15 points divided.

HP: 54 +16/Level
MP:16 +1/Level

This is no good, as it equals 17 points. So we adjust HP to +14/Level, and we are fine.

Attack: 5 +1/(4)Level
Magic: 3 +1/(8)Level

This however is fine, as it equals 12 levels. So we are left with:


Move Rate: 3
Jump Rate: 3
Speed: 8
Evade: 0%
Attack: 5 (6) +1/(4)Level
Magic: 3 (2) +1/(8)Level
HP: 54 +14/Level
MP:16 +1/Level

Move, Jump, Speed, and Evade would not follow the same template, as they are all independent stats and don't necessarily need to be tempered off another one.


Next: Secondary/Tertiary bonuses for Knight

[kablizzy]

There are a couple problems we ran into while trying to standardize base classes, and I want to make sure we're doing this right before starting - First, we had to make abilities that didn't make much sense for some of the weird classes - Geomancer, for instance. Every single ability of theirs costs 150JP. In this particular instance, we have spells like Quake and Aero and Tornado and stuff like that, but do we want Geomancer to be a spellcasting class? These are things we should consider, and also, classes like Ninja will have a ton of small abilities, and when we get to Black Mage / White Mage (The classes that require 10,000 JP to Master, we either chop their abilities down [Black Mage has 12 abilities just for Fire, Ice, Lightning 1-4]), that's not really prudent.

So, I guess my questions are fourfold - First, what do we care more about? Standardizing Classes, or giving people a wider array of choices? Secondly, how do we deal with classes that require 1200 JP to master versus classes that require ten times that? Especially in the MOJ tree, there's gonna be a large discrepancy there. And third, how do we deal with classes like Red Mage, who thrive on tons of smaller abilities from a bunch of different disciplines to make up their flavor and effect? And finally, classes like Mime, Chemist, Calculator, etc. that don't work well in HoI terms.

Edit: Most importantly, I don't want to get 13 classes in and go, "Oh, shit, we should've done things X way..." So answering these up-front may help in the long run.

[Schwerpunkt]

Ehhhh. As someone who mained a Knight in HoI v2, I can say that it was very underwhelming to have the entire class built around a tank (especially since I joined late and, therefore, I was a lower level than everything anyway).

Knights in FFT are kind of meh. What I'd like to see instead is Knights have two basic builds: sword-and-board and claymore (which would give them a class-specific weapon like the Ninja, Samurai, and Lancers all get). They'd use pretty much the exact same skillset, they'd just pick and choose what abilities to use. I decided to give these things proper names.

Activated Abilities (Strikes)
150 - Schielhau [Knight feigns a grapple and transitions into a strike at the head. Mechanically identical to Honor Strike. Applies 'Provoked' (Taunt) to the target, encouraging him to strike the Knight.]
250 - Schietelhau [Knight delivers an aimed blow towards the opponent's head with the intent of temporarily disorienting him. Regular accuracy, 85% damage on connect, target's turn is delayed by 25 CT.]
350 - Zornhau [Knight delivers a powerful downward diagonal cut towards an opening in the target's guard. -10% to hit, +25% damage on connect.]
450 - Zwerchau [Knight delivers a wide horizontal blow to all targets he is facing. -5% accuracy, -20% damage, hits up to 3 targets directly in front of the knight.]
500 - Stechen [Knight thrusts at his target's midsection. -5% to hit, +10% damage.
500 - Krumphau [Knight repeatedly strikes at his target in an attempt to break his guard. Half chance to disarm; if disarm fails, roll regular attack at 90% damage.]
500 - Kopfhau [Knight directs a well-aimed blow towards his opponent's head. Disarm Helm.]
500 - Blitzhau [Knight directs a flurry of blows to the targets's shield. Disarm Shield.]
500 - Handstreich [Knight turns his attention to strike at the enemy's grip with the intent of disarming him. Disarm Weapon.]
750 - Mordhau [Knight reverses his hold on his sword and uses the crosshilt to bludgeon his target. -10% to hit, +25% damage. If the enemy is provoked, damage bonus increased to +50%.]

Reaction Abilities (Stances)
250 - Alber (1/4 Brave as % for Disarm Weapon)
250 - Versetzen (Doubles Weapon P-Ev)
250 - Ochs (accuracy -5%, damage +10%)
250 - Eisenport (physical damage taken -15%, magic damage taken +10%).

Support Abilities
350 - Equip Armor and Shield
350 - Equip Helmet, Sword, and Claymore

Movement Ability
500 - Persistence [When wearing heavy armor and helmet, +1 Speed.]

10 activated abilities, 4 reaction abilities (stances), 2 support abilities, and 1 movement ability, for a grand total of 6,650 JP in this class -- which is including 700 JP in support abilities a first class Knight would never need, for an effective total JP value of 5,950 JP.

Additionally, Persistence is balanced to require both helm and armor. This means that Thieves and Ninja, two classes that would very much benefit hugely from it, cannot get it -- the Support options don't permit them to equip both a helmet and armor simultaneously.

Thoughts?

[Schwerpunkt]

So building on the above (which, in the context of the game, I'd probably refer to as the Romandan School of Dueling), Fencer would probably model itself after a different school, probably one that relied upon the rapier. Modern fencing uses a lot of French terms, so that's really easy to do. I would prefer to use Italian (Gallione's -ione is typically only found in Italian, so calling something the "Gallione School of Fencing" implies an Italian source). Additionally, since they're linguistically similar (by European standards), some Spanish terms can be used to shore up any conceivable holes.

French terms are more prolific, but French fencing is fairly modern and lots of modern fencing terms and concepts (like priority) simply don't apply here. The Italian/Spanish schools are older (not quite as old as the German "we don't even know what a rapier is" school, though).

[Ilium]

Apr 20, 2013 15:24:43 GMT -6 kablizzy said:

There are a couple problems we ran into while trying to standardize base classes, and I want to make sure we're doing this right before starting - First, we had to make abilities that didn't make much sense for some of the weird classes - Geomancer, for instance. Every single ability of theirs costs 150JP. In this particular instance, we have spells like Quake and Aero and Tornado and stuff like that, but do we want Geomancer to be a spellcasting class? These are things we should consider, and also, classes like Ninja will have a ton of small abilities, and when we get to Black Mage / White Mage (The classes that require 10,000 JP to Master, we either chop their abilities down [Black Mage has 12 abilities just for Fire, Ice, Lightning 1-4]), that's not really prudent.

To tell you the truth, I did not think of how Fire/Ice/Lightning would be implemented when I came up with my first figures. However, we can still work within the same parameters, we just need to change our variables. Instead of limiting abilities to 10, we make the class' entire ability set total no more than 5400 JP. So now lets take a look at Black Mage and how it might look using this new formula:

100 - Blizzard
100 - Fire
100 - Thunder
300 - Blizzara
300 - Fira
300 - Thundara
400 - Poisonous Frog (FFTA2)
500 - Death (FFT)
500 - Stardust (FFTA2)
550 - Focus (HoI)
750 - Blizzaga
750 - Firaga
750 - Thundaga

I think we should look at Primary classes as what they are: basic jobs. The typical player will have access to the abilities of several different classes throughout the game. So we don't necessarily need to incorporate high-tier abilities in the skillset of the primary classes, rather they should be reserved for Master and Specialist classes. The above ability set is a good representation of the Black Mage, while still staying within the 5400 JP cap range for class abilities.

Its also important to consider the point that the abilities of the class are going to make up only 10-20% of the character's identity. This being a rpg-based game, the vast majority of the PC's personality will be dictated by the player's narrative for it, and its interaction with other players. Seldom throughout the span of the game will the player have to worry about their skill set, only when planning what kind of combat role the PC will fill, and when preparing tactics during the phases in which they are participating in combat. We as staff should not feel the need to create intricate, complex classes with many skills and ability prerequisites in order to 'give' the player options for their PC.

This goes back to one of my personal goals for at least this version of the game, and that is simplicity and streamlining of the mechanics. One of the main issues that plagues Heroes of Ivalice was having too complex of a workload on the staff, caused by almost every aspect of the game. They were assaulted on all fronts almost immediately with how grand of a game V2 was, and the place buckled under the pressure. If we are going to be successful where the former staff finally proved not to be, we need to make sure we have a stable, simple, streamlined game that will not take multiple months to figure out every aspect of a game turn.

Also another key point that we need to keep in mind is that if we ever wish to have combat automated for us, that I will have to be able to come up with a functioning algorithm to represent each and every ability for each and every class, while considering status effects/modifications, etc. The simpler the base classes are, the more feasible this becomes.

So now we have two classes with ample amount of abilities to choose from, keeping in mind the plethora of other abilities that will become available to the PC in the future, while maintaining a balanced JP cap of 5400. While we are on the subject of the Black Mage, let's continue to flesh out its skillset:


500 - Counter Magic (FFT)

400 - Magick Attack Up (FFT)

100 - Aether Balance (New - Critical: HP converted to x1.5 MP damage)

Weapon: Rods
Helmet: Hats
Armor: Clothes, Robes
Shield: No
Move Rate: 3
Jump Rate: 3
Speed: 5
Evade: 5%
Attack: 3 +1/(8)Level
Magic: 5 +1/(4)Level
HP: 31 +4/Level        {29 +3/Level}
MP:45 +13/Level          {41 +12/Level}
Secondary Bonus: HP + 15, MP + 17, MA +1
Tertiary Bonus: MP + 5


Bolded areas reflect changes needed to follow same balancing rules from the Knight. If we were to follow the same guidelines for the rest of the classes, we will have base jobs that are equal in their restrictions, as well as two classes that are already prepared for the beta.

Apr 20, 2013 15:48:37 GMT -6 Schwerpunkt said:

Ehhhh. As someone who mained a Knight in HoI v2, I can say that it was very underwhelming to have the entire class built around a tank (especially since I joined late and, therefore, I was a lower level than everything anyway).

Knights in FFT are kind of meh. What I'd like to see instead is Knights have two basic builds: sword-and-board and claymore (which would give them a class-specific weapon like the Ninja, Samurai, and Lancers all get). They'd use pretty much the exact same skillset, they'd just pick and choose what abilities to use. I decided to give these things proper names.

Activated Abilities (Strikes)
150 - Schielhau [Knight feigns a grapple and transitions into a strike at the head. Mechanically identical to Honor Strike. Applies 'Provoked' (Taunt) to the target, encouraging him to strike the Knight.]
250 - Schietelhau [Knight delivers an aimed blow towards the opponent's head with the intent of temporarily disorienting him. Regular accuracy, 85% damage on connect, target's turn is delayed by 25 CT.]
350 - Zornhau [Knight delivers a powerful downward diagonal cut towards an opening in the target's guard. -10% to hit, +25% damage on connect.]
450 - Zwerchau [Knight delivers a wide horizontal blow to all targets he is facing. -5% accuracy, -20% damage, hits up to 3 targets directly in front of the knight.]
500 - Stechen [Knight thrusts at his target's midsection. -5% to hit, +10% damage.
500 - Krumphau [Knight repeatedly strikes at his target in an attempt to break his guard. Half chance to disarm; if disarm fails, roll regular attack at 90% damage.]
500 - Kopfhau [Knight directs a well-aimed blow towards his opponent's head. Disarm Helm.]
500 - Blitzhau [Knight directs a flurry of blows to the targets's shield. Disarm Shield.]
500 - Handstreich [Knight turns his attention to strike at the enemy's grip with the intent of disarming him. Disarm Weapon.]
750 - Mordhau [Knight reverses his hold on his sword and uses the crosshilt to bludgeon his target. -10% to hit, +25% damage. If the enemy is provoked, damage bonus increased to +50%.]

Reaction Abilities (Stances)
250 - Alber (1/4 Brave as % for Disarm Weapon)
250 - Versetzen (Doubles Weapon P-Ev)
250 - Ochs (accuracy -5%, damage +10%)
250 - Eisenport (physical damage taken -15%, magic damage taken +10%).

Support Abilities
350 - Equip Armor and Shield
350 - Equip Helmet, Sword, and Claymore

Movement Ability
500 - Persistence [When wearing heavy armor and helmet, +1 Speed.]

10 activated abilities, 4 reaction abilities (stances), 2 support abilities, and 1 movement ability, for a grand total of 6,650 JP in this class -- which is including 700 JP in support abilities a first class Knight would never need, for an effective total JP value of 5,950 JP.

Additionally, Persistence is balanced to require both helm and armor. This means that Thieves and Ninja, two classes that would very much benefit hugely from it, cannot get it -- the Support options don't permit them to equip both a helmet and armor simultaneously.

Thoughts?

I think here we have a good opportunity to apply the idea of hybrid classes: with a Knight you can focus on either tanking or dps, or tanking or crowd control. So reorganizing the original Knight skillset:

150 - Provoke
250 - Honor Strike (HoI)
300 - Intimidating Slash (HoI)
350 - Defense (FFTA2)
350 - Schietelhau
500 - Krumphau
750 - Mordhau (Personally I am inclined to more traditional Final Fantasy names for these, but I like the abilities themselves.)
750 - Expert Guard (FFTA)
or
750 - Beat Down
900 - Full Defense (HoI)
1100 - Survivalism (New - Something like Critical: Hastega, +1 PA, Shell)

100 - Weapon Guard (FFT)
200 - Counter (FFT)
or
250 - Eisenport

300 - Equip Armor (FFT)

500 - Slow March (New - Something like -1 Speed, +15 Evade)
or
500 - Persistence [When wearing heavy armor and helmet, +1 Speed.


I think the above is a better reflection of allowing players multiple avenue of play for their knight, whether it be main tank, cc or dps.

[Schwerpunkt]

Knights absolutely should not represent CC in any way, shape, or form. Their job is to hit things and get hit by things. Leave CC firmly in the hands of classes that can't both dps and tank. TOR used a similar system; every class that wasn't a tank got a CC.

And I really don't like the idea of mixing and matching Knight abilities. I approached the Knight design with a clear theme and interspersing FFT(A) abilities into the mix breaks the theme. Under those conditions, I'd rather simply reserve the ability names for the Berserker class. It's just jarring for me to jump from English to German and back to English. But feel free to keep the effects/descriptions; I can't really salvage those for an axe-wielding class.

But as we sit here and whack away at individual classes in this horribly disorganized fashion, I'm starting to see Kablizzy's point earlier: it's really hard to effectively dev classes without being able to agree on exactly what that class's role is (see: earlier in this post). So, looking at the basic POJs from FFT and FFT alone, here are my thoughts.

Squire - Cut him. He's terrible.
Knight - Tanking, DPS.
Archer - Ranged DPS, very limited CC.
Samurai - DPS, Utility (Draw Sword's got a bunch of beneficial effects).
Monk - DPS, Healing.
Thief - DPS, Utility ('cuz stealing some dude's sword is very useful for your team).
Ninja - Crazy mad deeps.
Lancer - DPS, auxiliary tanking (primarily with one-handed spears and shields).
Geomancer - DPS, Utility.
Dancer - Support.

MOJs.

Chemist - Axe.
Priest - Healing, Support.
Wizard - 'splosions.
Oracle - Utility, maybe a limited DPS role.
Time Mage - Utility and Support.
Mediator - Utility, gunshots from the other side of the map.
Summoner - 'splosions, Utility.
Bard - Support.

Where
DPS = Builds specifically intended to do damage. While the Oracle can poke you for decent damage, that doesn't count.
Healing = Negative DPS.
Tanking = Self-explanatory.
Utility = CCs, wide variety of status effects (both positive and negative); Utility classes will probably have an auxiliary DPS role.
Support = Abilities that apply minor effects over a wide area and/or simply do a little bit of everything.

Additions?

[Ilium]

Apr 20, 2013 21:42:35 GMT -6 Schwerpunkt said:

Knights absolutely should not represent CC in any way, shape, or form. Their job is to hit things and get hit by things. Leave CC firmly in the hands of classes that can't both dps and tank. TOR used a similar system; every class that wasn't a tank got a CC.

I don't understand this position at all, as the original break abilities could be considered a form of CC, as can the disarm abilities as they exist now. Also the only skill that I added that could be considered CC outright on its own is Provoke, which was lifted directly from your skill Schielhau, only I decided to simplify it.

And I really don't like the idea of mixing and matching Knight abilities. I approached the Knight design with a clear theme and interspersing FFT(A) abilities into the mix breaks the theme. Under those conditions, I'd rather simply reserve the ability names for the Berserker class. It's just jarring for me to jump from English to German and back to English. But feel free to keep the effects/descriptions; I can't really salvage those for an axe-wielding class.

My whole point with the primary classes, is that they should serve as base classes. From the primary you will be able to get a taste for what can be pursued later on in the game as you progress. So a 'themed' class beyond anything other than the basic abilities you have come to expect from that typical Final Fantasy class, should be reserved for the Master and Specialist classes. You guys are coming up with a lot of good ideas for different classes in that regard, where that kind of creative engineering of a skillset in a specific direction can be put to better use.

This also goes back to me saying that we shouldn't feel the need to engineer a class' abilities in a fashion to dictate how it is played for the player. In the grand scheme of this text based rpg, the abilities that are available to a specific PC at any given point will not be the focal point of the character. All we need to do as staff is provide the player with just enough options to keep them satisfied as they work through the other aspects of the game; namely the roleplay.

Once again, something that needs to be kept in mind at all times, is that a PC that progresses through the game will come across the entire skillset of its Primary class, the majority of its Secondary, and either a portion of its tertiary or the entire skillset of its Specialist/Master class. Don't worry, your typical PC will have a wide variety of abilities to choose from in the end, giving them the ability to tailor their PC in any way they want.

Squire - Cut him. He's terrible.
Knight - Tanking, DPS.
Archer - Ranged DPS, very limited CC.
Samurai - DPS, Utility (Draw Sword's got a bunch of beneficial effects).
Monk - DPS, Healing.
Thief - DPS, Utility ('cuz stealing some dude's sword is very useful for your team).
Ninja - Crazy mad deeps.
Lancer - DPS, auxiliary tanking (primarily with one-handed spears and shields).
Geomancer - DPS, Utility.
Dancer - Support.

MOJs.

Chemist - Axe.
Priest - Healing, Support.
Wizard - 'splosions.
Oracle - Utility, maybe a limited DPS role.
Time Mage - Utility and Support.
Mediator - Utility, gunshots from the other side of the map.
Summoner - 'splosions, Utility.
Bard - Support.

Other than Squire and Chemist, looks fine to me.