Class Discussion

[kablizzy]

I'm very okay with all of that, actually, and those are kind of what I was thinking for boiling down the specific classes to a general idea. Rune Knights were never supposed to be as stupid as they were, so as long as we do it right, I think it'd be okay. But we have to be careful on that one.

[Schwerpunkt]

Yeah, of course. We're talking about a magic-using Geomancer, for all intents and purposes, who would do damage (or healing) upwards of about 150% of what the Geomancer can do (due in large part to the fact that the traps have to be triggered and, thus, planned in advance). He'd be most interesting for the tactical terrain play.

[kablizzy]

That would be intriguing. I'm eager to see what we come up with there.

[Schwerpunkt]

Romanda's awarded classes:
Berserker (POJ): I'm thinking like a Geomancer with two handed wielding, bonuses to axes, and lots of really high damage output. They'd have a bit of a randomization factor (since axes were inconsistent as all hell) and be completely monsters if the RNG favored them.

Dark Knight (MOJ): Typically a POJ, I went with MOJ here to balance Berserker and simultaneously emphasize the class's acquisition in-game (where you have to master the Wizard class). I'd like to see some skills cost MP or HP; the HP-consuming skills would be more high-damage, the MP-consuming skills would have more status effects and stuff.

Khamja's awarded classes:
Assassin (POJ): Essentially, a hyper-nerfed version of Celia and Lede. Stop and Poison should be on at least two abilities each. And since it's a super-ninja, dual wield as well. An interesting alternative may be to give bonus damage to main hand ninja knives (so they hit for ~140% or something) and allow them to carry an off-hand crossbow or something.

Warlock (MOJ): Derived from the Mash’ewayad position in the Ordallian Court, the Warlock should have lots of Darkness-element spells, a more effective Bio (perhaps even a Bio + Poison or Bio + Slow), and some useful Oracle sells (Blind, Silence) in addition to a wide variety of reasonably large area of effect spells.

Church of Glabados' awarded classes:
Shrine Knight (POJ): Straight-forward.

Hierophant (MOJ): This class is Priest meets Mediator (without the guns). High-powered healing and, when not healing, higher success rates for CT delays and such. And maybe rods instead of staves, since rods are boss.

Ordallian awarded classes. Ordallia gets five (including a civilian) because it's so frickin' huge.
Zealot (POJ): Divine Knight, essentially. And since breaking someone's equipment permanently is hugely problematic, it'd only be 'broken' for the duration of a battle. The same holds true for any Rend abilities. Also, because they're sociopaths, they'd get a "heal when damage received" reaction ability.

Outrider (POJ): Basically, an archer meets a chocobo with some Machinist abilities sprinkled in. High mobility, some attacks that apply Don't Move, and a restriction to longbows (instead of being able to use crossbows).

Missionary (MOJ): Uber-mediator. Instead of guns, however, they just get really long ranges on their abilities (which have higher success rates). They'd be restricted to shotguns (which deal damage in a directional cone). Failing that, books and rods.

Thaumaturgist (MOJ): Upgraded Summoner, who summons djinni (Ordallian flavor summons) that do different status effects. This class would deal with fairly few nukes, specializing primarily in status changes (Protect, Dispel, Slow, Oil) that other classes would capitalize on.

Emir (Civilian): Improved version of the Civilian, now in Ordallian flavor!

Hokuten awarded classes:
Rune Knight (POJ): Assuming we decide against this as a basic class, else we use something else.

Arcane Knight (MOJ): Imbue Weapon happyfuntimes.

Nanten awarded classes:
Ark Knight (POJ): Temple Knight meets Zalbag. Minus the blood-sucking.

Astrologist (MOJ): C'mon, Orran's in the Nanten. This is a given.

Besrudio's Braves
Machinist (POJ): Ranged attacks with guns, abilities that apply Don't Move and Don't Act, and the ability to assemble a (weak) Steel Giant for a limited time. Further abilities grant the robot additional abilities.

CYBORG! (no, not a serious name) (MOJ): In the quest for the perfect body, the CYBORG! has begun augmenting or outright replacing his frail mortal pieces with cybernetic constructs, in effect turning the CYBORG! into a Steel Giant.

Baert Trading Company awarded class
Merchant Prince (Civilian): Lots of skills centered around crafting and making obscene amounts of cash. Maybe an auxiliary role as the classic Chemist in battles (ie, Throw Item and lots of item slots).

Corpse Brigade awarded classes
Hero (POJ): Probably more or less what the HoI master class here is. Maybe an ability or two from FF4HoL.

I'm stumped on the Corpse Brigade. Hero is probably good because it seems like a faction that's going to have a hell of a time competing (and, therefore, a very good awarded POJ is a plus), but I really have no idea about MOJ.

I also need a serious name for CYBORG! (although I would totally leave that as the class name). It's kind of a POJ, given that Steel Giant confers Innocence (0 Faith and de facto immunity to magic), but that's the kind of thing that can really go either way. The Machinist needs more stuff, so I figured if we gave him a weaker Steel Giant (especially as a sort of makeshift tank), it'd balance out.

If we make Rune Knights basic, we also need a new Hokuten POJ. In practice, Rune Knight and Ark Knight could be swapped easily, but I just thought traps with one awarded class and zodiac sign-based effects with the other would make the Nanten awarded classes too reliant upon sheer happenstance to be effective relative to their "we do this and only this" counterparts.

I also considered the Psychic, like in FF10-2, but I can't really think of where that would go. Maybe as a master class.

[kablizzy]

I honestly don't mind having Rune Knights as Awarded, and may prefer it for just that reason. Also, the number of basic classes got a bit out of control with v2 (What were there, 28?), so keeping that number lower is never a bad thing.

So, for Corpse Brigade, there are a couple I was gonna suggest, but I've entirely forgotten them now. They'll come back around.

[Mordred]

I know I'm late to the party, but can I chip in my $0.02 here? TOO BAD I WILL ANYWAY.

I don't think prestige/Awarded classes should exist in the game as such. I think that every class in the game should be unlockable mechanically and in no other way. Awarded classes are a gigantic invitation to favoritism and other nonsense, and frankly most of the "special" classes in FFT have no business being in a multiplayer game.

Classes in FFT that should not be in a multiplayer game: Mimes (useless solo), Calculators (useless solo), Divine Knight + Arc Knight (they make Knights useless; their abilities should be folded into Knight or tossed), Heaven/Hell Knight (lol), Temple Knight (they make Oracles useless), Holy Swordsmen (lol), SOLDIER (lol), Ramza Squire (should be generic Squire), Dragoner (why would a player ever have this class), Sorcerer (just put points in WM and BM), Cleric/Princess (only 2 spells, both should go to Priests), Lune Knight (it's just Divine Knight + Holy Knight)... the list goes on.

The only special classes in FFT that would translate well to a sim game are Holy Knight, Dark Knight, and (sort of) Astrologer. And they can be plugged right into the basic class tree!

Basically, if a class is available, it should be available to anyone. Y'all aren't the only ones who have been thinking about classes in your spare time, and once upon a time I threw together a spreadsheet for a class progression for my own FFT sim concept... here's the outline:

Every character signs up with a pool of JP they can assign to Squire or Chemist. As they assign JP, new classes are unlocked. This JP can be spent leveling up the classes in sequence, so you can either have access to more Jobs with fewer purchased skills in each Job, or fewer Job with more purchased skills. Every time a new Job is unlocked, it starts with 100 JP.

Here's the table in list form... Pardon the mess. I hate table bbcodes. Also the funky names are unique to me; just ignore them. Swordsman = Knight. Blackbelt = Monk. Runeblade = Samurai. Etc.

Job Command Prerequisites Unlock
Soldier (So) Battle Skill 0
Swordsman (Sw) Destroy Skill So 2 100
Blackbelt (Bb) Punch Art Sw 3 350
Geomancer (Ge) Elemental Bb 4 800
Runeblade (Ru) Draw Out Sw 4, Bb 5, Ln 2 2050
Archer (Ar) Snipe So 2 100
Rogue (Rg) Steal Ar 3 350
Lancer (Ln) Jump Rg 4 800
Assassin (As) Use Hand Ar 4, Rg 5, Ge 2 2050
Chemist (Ch) Item 0
White Mage (WM) White Magic Ch 2 100
Oracle (Or) Yin-Yang Magic WM 3 350
Mediator (Me) Talk Skill Or 4 800
Bard (Bd) Sing WM 4, Or 5, Su 2 2050
Black Mage (BM) Black Magic Ch 2 100
Time Mage [TM] Time Magic BM 3 350
Summoner (Su) Summon Magic TM 4 800
Astrologer (Ar) Starry Heaven BM 4, TM 5, Me 2 2050
White Knight (WK) Holy Sword Sw 8, Ru 2, WM 4, Bd 2 6000
Dark Knight (DK) Dark Sword Sw 8, As 2, BM 4, Ar 2 6450

The "Unlock" column tells you how many total JP you need to earn to get access to the Job. Example: Swordsman has an Unlock cost of 100. That's because Swordsman's prereq is Squire lv2, which costs 100 JP to reach. Oracle has an Unlock cost of 350, since the requirement is WM3, for which the requirement is Chemist 2. 100 JP to reach Chemist lv2 + 250 JP to reach White Mage lv3 = 350 JP to become an Oracle.

So yes, at the beginning of the game you'd have lots of Knights and Archers and Black Mages. More classes would become available as the game goes on and the pool of JP available to a starting character increases. Notice White Knight and Dark Knight at the bottom of the list. It would cost 6000 total JP that you'd need to earn to unlock White Knight (Holy Knight) as I have it set up: that's a tall order, but something a player can work towards as a long-term goal.

If anyone's curious: the Astrologer class I have listed there is actually Dancer, just with a different name and different unlock requirements. Basically, the Bard does all-party-member buffs from anywhere on the field, the Astrologer does all-enemy debuffs from anywhere on the field. It seems like a good pairing.

Random commentary on stuff from earlier in the thread:
+- There's no way to implement an FFT Calculator into a multiplayer game, and the HoI version wasn't so great.

+- Thieves/Knights should NOT be able to break/steal items permanently. It is a horrible idea that will ruin the game's economy in a heartbeat. Remember, Gil = items = power = Gil. If you break that chain for a character, you ruin their forward progression. Gil needs to be rare enough where you can't just replace level-appropriate gear without breaking a sweat or your economy will be ruined. Permanent steal/break has no place in that.

+- Randomized signup stats and randomized stat gains on level up are horrible ideas. Srsly, just... implement a point-buy system or something. Randomization is pretty much never the answer if you want balance.

[Schwerpunkt]

I disagree with the claim that we shouldn't have prestige classes. At the end of the day, people want these classes. They expect them. That, therefore, means we should include them -- or have a very goddamn good reason not to do so.

Furthermore, your system is inherently unbalanced because you approach it like FFT did -- you start with a crappy class and gradually improve. The end result is that later-tier classes are just flat out better. Go on -- try to argue to me that the Lancer will not eat the Knight for lunch. He totally will. Especially if the Knight doesn't have permabreaks (which I agree with you are a stupid thing to include).

Or we can look at the Ninja. The Ninja will shred almost all the Squire tree classes. In fact, the Ninja, taken in a vacuum, will kill almost any other class almost every time. The only classes that have a chance are the Knight, by virtue of high health and damage output, and the Samurai, who has the almost comically overpowered Blade Grasp.

FFT's tree system is inherently unbalanced. Later-tier classes are simply better than their earlier counterparts. Summoners beat Wizards, Oracles beat Time Mages, Mediators beat Chemists, and so forth. Only a handful of classes really have long-term viability (Knight, Priest, Monk for their sheer uniqueness).

By adopting that system, we're essentially forced to make our late-tier classes better -- or people just won't move up the chain to take them. Moreover, you create a situation where a guy who is level 10 and just moved up to Time Mage is stuck with no abilities but whatever he has from a secondary class (which could be, say, just Wizard). That's just plain goofy. On top of this, people have to sink a *lot* of time simply leveling classes they don't want. You want to play a Lancer? Fine, grind the Rogue. You want the Rogue? Grind the Archer. You want the Archer? Grind the Soldier.

And then there's the logistics involved. How many times did you have to check or double check a class's requirements in FFT? Now imagine that you're running a game with players who aren't as intelligent as you are (because, let's face it, players often make stupid mistakes for one reason or another -- we've all been there and been that guy). You will constantly be stopping to explain "no, that's not a valid class change, first you need to do ______." Which will probably require them sinking another three or more PTs (to change to that class, to level it, and to change back). And if they needed to be a specific class for a specific event, they're now SOL.

Look: HoI had problems on the clarity of when you'd get to add additional PA (or whatever) to your base class. It wasn't immediately clear if "every four levels" included the level you started that class or not (logically it wouldn't, but the rules weren't that clear). That led to many people asking the same question over and over again. This, mind you, on an exceedingly simple subject. Far more simple, in fact, than the hoops you'd have to jump through to qualify as a White/Dark Knight under that system.

Speaking of which, White/Dark Knight as basic classes would be earth-shatteringly overpowered. They'd be pretty much the only guys running around at endgame. Why on earth would you ever bother casting White Magic if you can just Sanguine Sword some bastard and heal yourself directly? Suddenly fights turn into those "AFK and watch them Suck Blood from each other until someone dies" fights that you sometimes got with the vampires.

I do agree with some of what you're saying. Perma-breaks are terrible (especially if Divine Knights show up, which they probably will), RNG leveling is awful (and you can ask anyone who plays FE to confirm that), and the Calculator is at best an entirely auxiliary class. I'm also very much in favor of axing the Mime entirely since it's arguably even more of a gimmick class than the Onion Knight.

Also, no one wants to play a game where they're one of sixty players and one of thirty squires.

[kablizzy]

I also disagree with the concept that there should be no special classes, but for a different reason. Instead of saying "Calculator has no place in the game, period." I rather ask the question, "What can we do to make Calculator a part of the game?" What this does is allows me to step back and look at Calculator, and say, "Hey, there's something wrong here." and instead of throwing it out the window, fix what's wrong and make it right.

Now, I think the part of development you missed was the part where I took a list of every single Final Fantsy class ever and vomited it into list form for us to sort through. We're systematically looking at these classes, one by one, and making a decision of whether or not it's salvageable or not. And for the most part, they are. Mime? Hell if I know what to do with it. But is it in the list for consideration? Motherfuck yes. And why? Because just because I don't see what can be done to salvage it doesn't mean it can't be salvaged, so we're gonna give it a try.

We've been down the road of RNG leveling, and RNG signup stats are just fine. The range is, like, 1-7, so it will have just enough impact to provide uniqueness without giving much actual, tangible gain. We've also discussed axing Dancer / Bard and combining them into Performer.

Also, in kind to what Schwer's saying - You have X class early, Y class late. That means anyone who wants their character to be a valiant Knight, as a rule of the game, you tell them to suck it because Ninjas are supposed to be better? Naw. That's not good. And by the same token, telling someone to spend 4400 JP to access a class that's the same power level as the one they're already in is also kinda silly. This is the same thing with the Squire / Chemist debate. Don't tell me the classes suck and aren't viable, let's fucking MAKE them viable. That's what we're here to do - develop a game. And I'll be damned if I don't try every avenue available to balance the classes within the system.

Also, FFT was broken. Let's be honest. Eleven whole classes had basically one ability. Knight, Samurai, Geomancer, Calculator, Archer, Thief, Lancer, Dancer / Bard (To an extent), Chemist, and Ninja.  And if you really think about it, Squire's only ability worth having was Accumulate. It's a single-player game. It can't go directly into something like this, especially when you're talking PVP. So, I don't see the benefit of entrenching further in a system that caused that problem. Instead, I'd like to break the mold a bit, give each class a unique, stable identity that can be accessed, and then instead of just mixing a couple of the weaker ___ Knights into the mix, I'd rather give the players some options to operate on that level. Also, I am 110% certain that we have the capacity to balance something like this. Yes, it is more work, but it's so much more rewarding. The solution to battling a Holy Swordsman in FFT was "Scream until you can Accumulate 40 times and hit." Here, I'd rather have the option of leveling to where Cidolfus is at, grab a Prestige class that has some decent defenses, grab a few buddies, and go to town on his face. Do I expect Prestige classes to be on that level? Gods no. That's Cid's class, and he's King shit #1 Super Mecha-Badass man. Do I expect a team of Prestige-Class dudes to kick his ass across the board? Sure. 

Now, that's not to say that the things you're saying are wrong or invalid, 'cause I see the concept, and I understand that there's some potential for Awarded Classes to get out of hand, but given that this time around, your requisites for an Awarded Class are going to be, "Be in this faction, Be this level, Do this thing," I think we've eliminated that particular problem, and all without having to skew the class system or do away with arguably the coolest part of the game. I mean, let's be honest. Who didn't look at Celia and Lede and go, "Why the fuck isn't Assassin a chooseable class?" Because, again, let's be honest. If your answer to that is "It's broken and OP," you weren't playing the same Scream-Spamming, Ridiculous-at-high-levels, Orlandu-in-every-fucking-battle-why?-because-he's-hitting-for-1000-Goddamn-damage-twice-as-fast-as-anyone-else-can-think-that's-why game.

[kablizzy]

Now, to clarify: JP requirements or class requirements for Prestige classes are intriguing, and something I do want to look into. I think Schwer has be convinced that Prestige classes shouldn't be 1:1 with base classes, but we'll see how this goes. I'm not 100% on whether or not Calculator would have the same number of options to Prestige into as, say, Knight or Lancer.

Also, I disliked pretty much every HoI version there was. There wasn't really anything amazing about half the classes, and the other half were more powerful than their counterparts. So, it's my immediate concept to rectify this, in whatever capacity that we can. And I know that we can.

[Schwerpunkt]

Well, my general thinking is that if we have 18 classes (or whatever it is right now), making 18 distinct master classes is going to be a lot of work. Factor in another ~20 faction-specific prestige classes and we've got a hell of a lot of balancing to do. Even by simply halving the number of master classes we have, we significantly reduce our workload and greatly increase the odds that we don't wind up with shitty master classes that nobody likes (and HoI had more than a few of those).

What kind of JP requirements we talking about, exactly?

[Blizz_Work]

Oh, I agree that it's a lot less work, I just don't know how it's all going to pan out - I'd feel weird if Lancers got access to four or five "Master" classes, and Time Mage got one. I'd love less work, and we do already have a ton of balancing, I just want to make sure we're doing things right by the players as well.

And JP requirements like Mord was talking about. Basically, instead of Level requirements?

[Schwerpunkt]

That's kind of silly. I was more thinking that, between the 9 master classes, we'd simply divide 3 between the schools and run from there.

The JP requirements don't make much sense. If every XP is roughly equivalent to 4 JP, then what's the difference between requiring the player accumulate the equivalent of 1400 XP (ie, to get to level 15) and accumulating 5,600 JP?

The only real difference is that we couldn't award additional JP for stuff (like, say, plots). It's just a limitation without, as far as I can tell, any meaningful benefit. The only thing I can think of is charging a set fee to 'unlock' your secondary and prestige classes, which may or may not even be viable.

[Mordred]

As for Prestige classes, what people "want and expect" can drown in bleach. Every class in the game needs its own unique niche or you run into balancing problems. Finding that niche for the base classes needs to take precedence over adding Prestige classes just for the sake of having them.

Again, automation invalidates the requirement tracking argument.

FFT was unbalanced, you're right. The job progression table I posted is based purely on FFT with some tweaks I made, and it probably won't serve for an MMO setting (which is what this is). However, I still *very* strongly feel that Job Change mechanics are vital to having any kind of game that can be said to be "based on FFT." We need to figure out some kind of progression mechanic to allow people to earn their way through the job tree (or ring or pool or whatever).

I do agree that jobs need to be balanced across the tiers, but I think a lot of the examples you cited were poor design within FFT itself that could be corrected for FFS. For instance, here's a few observations on FFT classes that desperately need to be corrected for FFS:

+- The Gil Eater Classes: Knights, Thieves, Chemists, Samurai, and Ninja all have skillsets that CANNOT translate from FFT to FFS. Gil is a resource like XP or JP for an adventurer; you get more of it to increase your power. The Gil Eaters require WAY more Gil than any other class as they exist in FFT. Imagine if their abilities affected XP instead of items:

Knights can permanently knock levels off enemies with their equip break skills (NO NO NO)
Thieves can steal enemies' levels and add them to their own (OH SWEET CHRIST NO!!!!)
Chemists spend XP for every potion they toss.
Samurai have to keep a pool of several tens of levels in storage (not helping their stats), and have a risk to lose one of those stored levels every time they use a Draw Out.
Ninjas throw sharpened chunks of XP at people to damage them.

See, these are classes that need to be redesigned to varying degrees. Draw Outs can just be changed to not need you to own the sword in question to use them. Chemists can use items for free if your current main class is Chemist; everyone else who uses Item consumes items. [Hence why in my own idiosyncratic class list, I replaced Thieves with Rogues - I'd rather leave the "Break" skills with the Knight and turn them into Disarms (e.g. "Weapon Disarm" knocks off the equipped weapon until the end of the battle, unless the target has Maintenance or Equip Change), and give the Rogue a totally new skill set.] .

But Ninjas need totally new skillsets, so do Thieves. So do Archers, so do Lancers, so do Calculators, so do Mimes, Wizards, and Mediators. Easily half the classes in FFT are totally unsuitable for FFS, and it's kind of nutty to be talking or even THINKING about Prestige classes when we've only got about 9 functional base classes.

The only reason anyone needs Master classes is if there is no Job change mechanic. We should build master-level power into EVERY class, not make all the basic classes suck in comparison to an over-tier of uberleethaxxorz. If you have any interest in attracting players later in the game's life, or making the game non-torturous for those who have to reroll due to death, you'll build a decent power level into all the base Jobs.

Master classes are necessary without a Job change mechanic because in FFT, diversity builds your strength. You pull R/S/M abilities from multiple classes, you pick your secondary ability and your equipment from a variety of sources to pull off feats a single class is incapable of by itself. But without a Job change mechanic, you can only gain more power from a "Master" unlock, which is inherently unbalancing.

If you want to stay attached to this paradigm where you never change Jobs and you can only cross-class into a secondary/tertiary Job that never changes either, then there's no need to even track JP as a quantity. FFT has JP because you can go through Jobs freely, cherry-picking only the abilities you want. I often visit Oracle with my fighters just long enough to buy the AttackUP Support, then I'm right back to Monking it up. But if I can't switch Jobs, there is *no* reason to track JP. Just award new abilities at XP-level-up like D&D, or be like Diablo and put together some ability prerequisite trees.

The RNG should play no role whatsoever at character creation, leveling up, or anywhere else. It's fundamentally unfair. If the RNG's role in character creation is small enough to not make a difference... then why include it? Peoples' characters don't become unique by having tiny variations in statline as compared to characters of the same class/level. Personality comes from RP, not the character sheet.

[kablizzy]

Also someone remind me to post here tomorrow, please?

[Mordred]

Post here tomorrow!