Class Discussion

[Ilium]

Sounds good, I'm anxious to see what you have created! So basically a character with 50 HP, 20 MP, 6 PA, and 4 MA becomes 500, 200, 60 and 40, correct? That would create the opportunity for much more varied characters. Why not multiply Speed by 10 as well if it needs to be done for damage calculations?

[silversilvera]

No one is showing up for work so I've been doing it, which is why I haven't posted.

Anyways, upon multiplying PA and MA by 10 I find that they have weird growth rates. Their not all the same (the problem with HP and MP) but they have weird growth rates, like 3 every 5 levels, which could create confusion. Its much easier if its "once every five levels".

So, new proposal: HP/MPx10, PA/MA/SP stay the same. Whenever damage is calculated, before the randomness is introduced, it gets multiplied by 10.

Also, changing speed would mean having to adjust the clock for the combat system by x10, which would mean more work doing battles.

[Ilium]

If you read the General Discussion thread, you will see I have a valid reason for not being here the past couple days. Regardless, what if we introduced randomizers to HP and MP in order to create more variance? Instead of HP and MP growing at base rates like PA and MA do right now, let's say a Squire has a random chance of increasing HP anywhere from 2 to 10, and MP 1 to 6. I know this would not translate well to your spreadsheet, as HP and MP bases would be different for each character, so we don't have to consider that idea too strongly. Unless of course you create mimimum base stat and minumum growth for each category, and add in the randomizer algorithm after the fact.

Beyond that, I have been toying with the idea of having all abilities and magic instant actions, like how it's done in FFTA2. This would make combat that much easier, and would make the speed stat mostly just a number that determines each character's turn order in battle. Do you like this idea, or no?

[silversilvera]

I didn't mean people weren't showing up to work here! I meant at my IRL work and thats why I wasn't finished with the stuff I was working on. Oops. Wrote that the wrong way. It wasn't a shot at you.

The problem with random stats is that people get pissed off when one person constantly gets small gains and someone else constantly gets high gains. Not that its the authority on the matter, but I was reading a thread on the official RPG Maker forum and it was a discussion about random stat gains. A couple people said they were neutral, but nearly everyone else said it was a bad idea because some people are bound to get low stat changes. However, introducing random (but fair) variance in HP/MP/Brave/Faith are very possible. HOI had those intro questions that affected your starting Brave/Faith. We could have those, but also have those influence HP and MP. A small random factor would also be fine (so long as say, if you got -3 to your base HP, you got +3 to your base MP so it would even out).

It would make combat much easier, which is why I was hoping we could get some sort of programmer to help us with the battle system set up. I loath when speed simply determines who goes first. The problem with it is that if you are facing an opponent with 5 speed, it doesn't matter whether you have 6 speed or 600 speed, you still only get the same bonus. That being said, if thats the way it has to go in order to for things to be able to be ran quickly, then I'll have to be okay with it.

[wrips]

Why not converting the integer system of FFT to decimal? Instead of PA or MA increasing every two or three levels in discret growths, it's better to make them to grow "continuously". Instead of it waiting three levels to 4 to 5, let's assume that it will go to 4.33->4.66->5.00. About some ramdomness in stat growth, I think that is a way to do it without causing some prejudice to some players. FFT has five growth stats: PA, MA, Speed, HP and MP. If one stat is affected by bad growth, one will be affected by good growth, if two bad growths, then two good growths. I think a chance of 0.3 for two stat being affected and 0.7 for one. Then we ramdomly choose which stat will be affected. Let's say a player gains a level. We will throw a dice to see either if lower or bigger than 30. It's lower. Then, one stat will receive bad growth and one good growth. Next, we find out if it will a small bad(good) or a big bad (good). This way introduce some ramdom in the stat growths without weakening the whole figure. Another suggestion is to define character traits at character creation that gives bonus to stat growth, too.

[Ilium]

Mar 28, 2013 21:51:27 GMT -6 silversilvera said:

I didn't mean people weren't showing up to work here! I meant at my IRL work and thats why I wasn't finished with the stuff I was working on. Oops. Wrote that the wrong way. It wasn't a shot at you.

Ha, sorry. I'm going to blame that lack of comprehension on my shot nerves and extreme sleep deprivation.

The problem with random stats is that people get pissed off when one person constantly gets small gains and someone else constantly gets high gains. Not that its the authority on the matter, but I was reading a thread on the official RPG Maker forum and it was a discussion about random stat gains. A couple people said they were neutral, but nearly everyone else said it was a bad idea because some people are bound to get low stat changes. However, introducing random (but fair) variance in HP/MP/Brave/Faith are very possible. HOI had those intro questions that affected your starting Brave/Faith. We could have those, but also have those influence HP and MP. A small random factor would also be fine (so long as say, if you got -3 to your base HP, you got +3 to your base MP so it would even out).

That would be fair. Yes, it would be inevitable that some players would continuously get low gains with each level, which wouldn't be fair especially if you were trying to maximize a specific stat. It would be easy enough to add that variance all at once in the beginning, to still try and get as many unique PC's as possible. Say, when a character is created, that character has "X" number of points that will be randomly distributed between HP and MP, and "Y" number of points randomly distributed into Brave and Faith. For example:

• PC1 rolls a Squire with HP: 35, MP: 15. Let's say for example "X" was 20 points. So randomly PC1's Squire gets 6 points distributed to HP and 14 distributed to MP, resulting in HP: 41 MP: 29. (All numbers here are arbitrary and won't necessarily reflect what they will be in the actual game.)
  
• The same Squire gets Brave 63, Faith 61. Repeat the same process, but lets say "Y" is only something like 7, and that is randomly distributed to Brave 6 Faith 1, resulting in Brave 69 Faith 62.
  
• I feel it would be important to keep these numbers completely random, and not allow for the player to choose where these stats are allocated, simply because the majority of players would probably min/max their PC's, which would be the opposite effect of what this is trying to accomplish.

Other ways we could explore stat growth is through unique items, and PT actions.

It would make combat much easier, which is why I was hoping we could get some sort of programmer to help us with the battle system set up. I loath when speed simply determines who goes first. The problem with it is that if you are facing an opponent with 5 speed, it doesn't matter whether you have 6 speed or 600 speed, you still only get the same bonus. That being said, if thats the way it has to go in order to for things to be able to be ran quickly, then I'll have to be okay with it.

Oh no, from a programming standpoint it would not be hard at all. Merely create a method for Charge Time, and call that method at the end of each action. I could even add an if statement stating that if a certain character's CT reaches 100, the program automatically runs the ability next in order, without having to manually see what the CT's of each character are.

What I was thinking of was more along the lines of for your average player, who might not have intimate knowledge of the battle mechanics of Tactics. Determining where their action would take place in turn order could be slightly more confusing for the average player, especially if their action targets a panel and not a unit. That confusion may only be compounded by the text-based nature of this game, with little visual cues in comparison to the video game. Still, you could say that is part of the "Tactics" of this game, and the dedicated players who take their free time and energy to learn as much as they can about the game deserve whatever strategic perks come along with that. I'm perfectly fine continuing with Speed and CT as they are in FFT.

You are right though, I could use another programmer to help me flesh out all the code that will need to be written regardless. Right now my goal on the programming side is to get PT's, KT's and combat automated, which shouldn't be too difficult. Long term, I have these grandiose ideas of "embedding" your character into your forum account, creating a PT program that provides results instantly, and eventually getting a visual program running for combat where we could almost mimic the original game battle, with the exception of us being able to manually move the characters, use abilities, etc. according to the tactics submitted by the players. I would undoubtedly need help getting all of that kind of stuff running though.

[Schwerpunkt]

If you're building FFT-esque classes, I strongly recommend reading some of the BMG. It lays out all the formulae used by FFT, ranging from direct damage calculation (WP*PA) to Dispel (which is [CasterFaith/100] * [TargetFaith/100] * [MA+200]). Good resource to getting a general ballpark on how to build these kinds of things.

www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197339-final-fantasy-tactics/faqs/3876

[Ilium]

Welcome to the forum! Yeah, I believe that is the mechanics guide I have been studying, and the one that Silversilvera is familiar with. I posted a link to a guide in the mechanics thread, that may or may not be the same one you provided!

[Schwerpunkt]

Entirely possible that it's the same. I haven't spent all that much time looking around, really, but I figured I'd try to contribute a bit. Developing a sim is an enormous amount of work.

[Ilium]

Yeah, I just double checked the mechanics thread and that is the same guide. Major props to aerostar for putting that thing together! I've only glanced over it recently, as of right now my focus is getting this board put together. Silversilvera was kind enough to donate his time to stat growth right now, so he would have a better overall understanding of all of that than I would at this point and time. You are right though, developing a sim, is an enormous endeavor, but its something I have come to enjoy here!

[Schwerpunkt]

Sim development can be kind of fun. But then, I've always liked world building. That's basically what it is -- just with more number crunching and maybe the possibility that someone else will, at some point in the distant future, get to contribute. But none of my development cycles have ever completed (for a variety of reasons -- most recently because simdomain.net imploded last year).

But we're like crazy off topic at this point. So here's my thoughts on class structure.

One thing I didn't like about HoI's structure was that some classes just weren't logical. There was, for instance, very little incentive to pick up Knight over Rune Knight. The latter could dish out elemental damage, had very similar stat growth, and could even equip a crossbow (which was weird). The Knight was a better tank (and had a few interesting abilities, like Honor Strike's "I don't care how much P-Ev you stack, I'm still going to hit you"), but the Rune Knight was arguably just all-around better. And that, I think, was the inevitable result of making too many base classes available at once.

Instead, I'd like to see us stick with six (plus one) base classes: Squire, Chemist, Knight, Archer, White Mage, Black Mage (and the civvie off in the corner, being emo and lonely). There would then be additional classes on the next tier: Lancers, Ninjas, and so forth. The final tier would be the 'Master' tier, which would be custom classes, the Dark Knight job, and so forth. Getting to the third tier would require either mastering your choice from the previous two tiers or being awarded a class.

Tying the awarded class into my suggestion in the storyline topic, you could award classes from each of the major GMNPC factions once people hit a certain level. The Temple might award 'Hierophant,' which basically a White Mage but less sucky (maybe add in some skills reminiscent of the Mediator, a couple more offensive spells, and so forth). The Hawks might award 'Holy Knight,' since Cid and Balbanes were both very highly ranked military officials (they were 'Sword Saints,' though, and that class is so broken it's not even funny). And the Merchants might reward some kind of weird job similarish to Balthier's 'Sky Pirate' job. You get the idea. Additionally, you might award other special jobs through the course of normal questing and stuff.

My general vision is to aim for 10 levels per tier. 1-10 for the lowbie stuff (which would pass the fastest of all the tiers), 11-20 for the second tier (which would take much longer), 21+ for the master tier. This would make it reasonably easy for players to quickly multiclass (one of HoI's problems was that you were just a vanilla nub until... 15ish?, which could take months), but still take you awhile to get to the top tier. You would, of course, be able to simply not declare a second tier class for a few levels (or declare it and sink very few points into it), or really do whatever you wanted with it. I dislike the idea of hard restrictions, so I would favor allowing (for instance) a Black Mage to take a Ninja as his second class. But that's possibly contentious.

Oh, and I did some skimming through this topic: I do not like, and would strongly suggest against, using any sort of random variance in stats. Games like this are inherently competitive and nobody really likes losing an important duel because, months back, some RNG hosed them on HP growth. I like WotD's system, which basically reduces everything to raw calculations. Especially since, if you really want to get technical, "random" algorithms aren't really random.

[Ilium]

Apr 5, 2013 18:00:56 GMT -6 Schwerpunkt said:

Sim development can be kind of fun. But then, I've always liked world building. That's basically what it is -- just with more number crunching and maybe the possibility that someone else will, at some point in the distant future, get to contribute. But none of my development cycles have ever completed (for a variety of reasons -- most recently because simdomain.net imploded last year).

But we're like crazy off topic at this point. So here's my thoughts on class structure.

I share the same sentiments about world building and the like. My favorite games have always been games like Age of Empires, Civilization, Sim City, RoTK, etc. You seem to have alot of ideas for this game, if you'd like to help more directly we're obviously looking for staff right now.

One thing I didn't like about HoI's structure was that some classes just weren't logical. There was, for instance, very little incentive to pick up Knight over Rune Knight. The latter could dish out elemental damage, had very similar stat growth, and could even equip a crossbow (which was weird). The Knight was a better tank (and had a few interesting abilities, like Honor Strike's "I don't care how much P-Ev you stack, I'm still going to hit you"), but the Rune Knight was arguably just all-around better. And that, I think, was the inevitable result of making too many base classes available at once.

That Rune Knight was a problem, and is a good example of too many starting classes.

Instead, I'd like to see us stick with six (plus one) base classes: Squire, Chemist, Knight, Archer, White Mage, Black Mage (and the civvie off in the corner, being emo and lonely). There would then be additional classes on the next tier: Lancers, Ninjas, and so forth. The final tier would be the 'Master' tier, which would be custom classes, the Dark Knight job, and so forth. Getting to the third tier would require either mastering your choice from the previous two tiers or being awarded a class.

Here is a point I would like to contend. Why not keep all the starting classes from FFT available at start? That would provide the most diversity for players to choose for the get go, and would keep the game more varied throughout the experience. With this class tree I could envision the early game made up of dozens of Knights and Black Mages, the mid-game filled with Lancers and Time Mages, with only the late game realistically having the most variance of any period of the game.

I think Heroes of Ivalice had the right idea with how they split up Primary/Secondary/Alternate classes, but that idea could certainly be improved upon. First, we limit the primary classes to the jobs in the original PSX game. That serves two points: simplicity and diversity. Simplicity in that it would be easy to port these classes and only have to make minor tweaks to enhance balance for our game. The Knight/Rune Knight is a perfect example too many classes that were alike in HoI. Each original job was unique and had abilities of its own that made them attractive to use. The diversity of class talents compared to the needs of the factions would lead to more unique experiences all throughout the game.

Second, we could make secondary and tertiary classes easier/faster to obtain than HoI. Awarded and master classes should be easier to obtain as well, especially awarded classes. Their we could have true diversity in classes, as Silversilvera pointed out earlier in this thread.

Tying the awarded class into my suggestion in the storyline topic, you could award classes from each of the major GMNPC factions once people hit a certain level. The Temple might award 'Hierophant,' which basically a White Mage but less sucky (maybe add in some skills reminiscent of the Mediator, a couple more offensive spells, and so forth). The Hawks might award 'Holy Knight,' since Cid and Balbanes were both very highly ranked military officials (they were 'Sword Saints,' though, and that class is so broken it's not even funny). And the Merchants might reward some kind of weird job similarish to Balthier's 'Sky Pirate' job. You get the idea. Additionally, you might award other special jobs through the course of normal questing and stuff.

That's a good idea. If someone wants to be a Templar they join a certain faction for that, or Engineer and the like. I think the main point I'd like to get across is we should have a lot of awarded classes that are available.

My general vision is to aim for 10 levels per tier. 1-10 for the lowbie stuff (which would pass the fastest of all the tiers), 11-20 for the second tier (which would take much longer), 21+ for the master tier. This would make it reasonably easy for players to quickly multiclass (one of HoI's problems was that you were just a vanilla nub until... 15ish?, which could take months), but still take you awhile to get to the top tier. You would, of course, be able to simply not declare a second tier class for a few levels (or declare it and sink very few points into it), or really do whatever you wanted with it. I dislike the idea of hard restrictions, so I would favor allowing (for instance) a Black Mage to take a Ninja as his second class. But that's possibly contentious.

I believe I have roughly the same idea as you on what level PC's should be on for what point in their progression. I have that roughly ironed out in the class thread, but all that information is arbitrary at this point. I also like the idea of the secondary being restricted to their primary's job tree (Knight's secondary can be any POJ, White Mage's secondary can be any MOJ), while the alternate can be any class they wish. That's not a big point though, I'm cerainly open to that being changed.

Oh, and I did some skimming through this topic: I do not like, and would strongly suggest against, using any sort of random variance in stats. Games like this are inherently competitive and nobody really likes losing an important duel because, months back, some RNG hosed them on HP growth. I like WotD's system, which basically reduces everything to raw calculations. Especially since, if you really want to get technical, "random" algorithms aren't really random.

Yeah random stat variance seems to be a contested issue. However I'm struggling to come up with how we can have variance in stats, and not having each PC being a clone of another with the same exact stat tree. Perhaps personal turns and/or items and the like, where players can plan the way they want their stats to grow a bit. Any other suggestions are certainly appreciated.

[Schwerpunkt]

While I appreciate the offer, I'm tapped as staff for WotD NNT and I'm considering ruling on HoC when it reboots. I probably won't have time for much more than just playing when this goes live.

Here is a point I would like to contend. Why not keep all the starting classes from FFT available at start? That would provide the most diversity for players to choose for the get go, and would keep the game more varied throughout the experience. With this class tree I could envision the early game made up of dozens of Knights and Black Mages, the mid-game filled with Lancers and Time Mages, with only the late game realistically having the most variance of any period of the game.

I suppose that would result in lots of very similar character builds. Point.

I believe I have roughly the same idea as you on what level PC's should be on for what point in their progression. I have that roughly ironed out in the class thread, but all that information is arbitrary at this point. I also like the idea of the secondary being restricted to their primary's job tree (Knight's secondary can be any POJ, White Mage's secondary can be any MOJ), while the alternate can be any class they wish. That's not a big point though, I'm cerainly open to that being changed.

The problem there is that, in practice, the "alternate" is probably going to be an awarded class. This basically means that anyone who takes a class like a Knight is probably going to take another tanky class (like Lancer or Samurai) or a faster class (like Thief or Ninja) and then pick up their alternate (which might be, say, Beowulf's Temple Knight, which gives them long-range spell options before they close and stab you in the face).

If you want real variety, let the secondary class come from anywhere. Let's have our Black Mage/Ninjas drop stupidly fast-charging fireballs on people. Let's have our Archer use Haste to make his Aim less stupidly slow. And so forth.

But now that I mull it over, the best option (and hardest to balance) would be to do something entirely differently: namely by having secondary classes not be the full class skill list, but rather a selection of skills and bonuses designed to represent a sort of hybrid character. So, theoretically, if you took a Knight as your primary and a Black Mage as your secondary, the final character design would look something like the Rune Knight from HoI.

What this would basically entail is taking the normal Black Mage template and splitting it into two sub-templates for the secondary class option. The primary template would be for other casters and would include stuff like spells and higher stat bonuses (so that pure casters or pure fighters are very, very good at it -- and terrible at the opposite thing). So if you were a Time Mage, you might get Fire, Ice, Bolt, and Poison along with that ability that makes Black Magi do more spell damage. But if you were a Knight, you might get Imbue Weapon (which would 'charge' your weapon with a specific element, allowing your melee attacks to inflict bonus damage in the form of that elemental damage), Quid Pro Quo (which, provided you have enough MP, retaliates against enemy magic with the same spell -- but doesn't actually require you have the spell in question, just this equipped as a reaction ability).

While it'd be pretty hard to develop this kind of system and not be redundant, I think it has the most potential. Unless the HoI system, which just gives you a second job that may not even be terribly relevant to the character you're making (or may just be plain silly like my Knight/Rune Knight), it's far more interesting and unique. Now every base class evolves along with you as you play (up until you get an awarded/master class), which better represents character growth than "oh, hey, the knight somehow learned to be a ninja, too."

The problem, of course, is that you'd basically have to develop a given job three times: first as a primary, then as a secondary of the same type (which would be kind of similar to the primary), then as a secondary of the opposite type, which requires some creative thinking. For instance, I'm not entirely sure how you'd somehow combine the inherent class traits of the Lancer (which, to be frank, is just a knight with a spear anyway) with a Time Mage. It'd be a pretty difficult system to work out. But it'd also be a very cool system to work out, one that basically means no two characters will ever be the same.



Oh, and the solution to making characters unique while having similar stats (and no RNG in the sign up) is pretty simple. I have an idea about that (involving traits selected at sign up) that I'll post up tomorrow.

[Schwerpunkt]

In the event my idea above on two class templates for secondaries, I'll use another example: Oracle and Knight.

Oracle: for MOJ, pretty simple: add a whole mess of spells and a support skill (like, say, allowing casters to equip rods and get that spectacular two tile poke ability). For POJ, it's a bit more nuanced: take the spirit of the spells themselves and integrate them into a unique delivery system (so you might cast "Status Strike: Silence" and grant your next x number of attacks a y% chance of silencing the target), then take the spirit of Absorb Used MP (if you get hit with a spell, you regen MP equal to the amount spent) and add "Spell Eater" or something, which does the same thing but perhaps with an auxiliary role of some sort (say, restoring HP equal to the amount of MP spent in addition to restoring the MP spent).

Knight: this (like most physical classes) would grant you the ability to equip this stuff (so, if you went Samurai-Knight, you'd be able to learn Equip Shield... though I'm not sure why you'd want to), but it'd also grant you access to whatever Knight skills we decided to use (thus allowing Archers to do something silly, like Rend Helmet with their crossbows). For MOJ, you might also grant an equip ability (since the knight's ability to equip shields gives it outrageous P-Ev when stacked with a mantle), but you might also get access to some "tanky" skills (whatever they may be), tailored for MOJ tanking. So you might get an attack that encourages the demon to throw a fireball at you, but you also have much higher M-Ev and health than you would otherwise, making you a viable tank (especially if there's a taunt system of some sort in place). If you're an old hand at WoW, think warlock tanking Leo in SSC. Alternatively, imagine just how annoying it would be to kill a Summoner in heavy armor before he drops that Ifrit nuke on your entire group.

Doing this creates some pretty weird class combinations. Suppose, for instance, you play a thief -- and then take the Knight job. Suddenly you're a crazy fast thief who can steal things, but you also wear heavy armor (because logic), making you about twice as resilient as you would be otherwise. Or you're an Oracle/Archer with a support ability that allows you to equip a one-handed crossbow in your off hand, letting you walk into battle with a staff and crossbow (because, and let's be honest here, sometimes you don't want to wait for a spell and just really want to shoot that guy in the face with your fancy-schmancy crossbow).

The more I think about this system, the better I think it fits our needs. Some classes may just not work with two distinct templates (like the Mime, for instance), while some would get to better emulate some special classes in the game (like Mediator/Thief for Sky Pirate).





So, I mentioned I had an idea for sign ups. Basically, what I'd like to see is what I was going to do with my AGOT sim: having lots of traits that a character takes on sign up. Here's an initial draft.


Cultural Group: Ivalician (No Change), Ordallian (+2 Faith, -2 Brave), Romandan (+2 Brave, -2 Faith), Exotic (-1 Brave, -1 Faith)

Literacy: Unlettered (+3 Brave), Lettered (+2 Faith)

Social Status: Serf (+2 Brave, +3 Faith), Burgher (+2 Faith, +3 Brave), Lord (No Change)

Physical Trait: Dwarf (+4 Faith, -2 Brave, -10 HP), Lean (+1 Speed, -1 Faith, -10 HP), Average (No Change), Athletic (+2 Brave, -1 Faith), Gigantic (+4 Brave, -4 Faith, -1 Speed, +20 HP)

Mental Trait: Savant (-2 Faith, +3 Brave, +10 HP), Slow (-1 Faith, +2 Brave), Average (No Change), Keen (+2 Faith, -1 Brave), Brilliant (+4 Faith, -1 Brave, -1 Speed)

Religion: Church of Glabados (+1 Faith), Apostate (+2 Brave, -1 Faith), Heretic (+2 Faith)

So, we have six traits that you pick up on your way down the list. You, naturally, select one from each option. So let's start on the assumption that your average character has 50 Brave/Faith, 100 HP, and 5 Speed on sign-up (this is just a benchmark).

I want to play an Ordallian Knight. Right off the bat I pick Ordallian culture and have 48 Brave, 52 Faith, 100 HP, and 5 Speed. I think pick up Burgher, so now I'm at 50 Brave, 55 Faith, 100 HP, and 5 Speed. Then I decide I'm actually a Dwarf Knight, so now I'm at 48 Brave, 59 Faith, 90 HP, and 5 Speed. Then I decide I'm a Savant, so I'm at 51 Brave, 57 Faith, 100 HP, and 5 Speed. Then I take Heretic for my faith and I'm at 51 Brave, 59 Faith, 100 HP, and 5 Speed. And since I missed it earlier, he's also unlettered, giving him 54 Brave, 59 Faith, 100 HP, and 5 Speed.

Now, immediately after sign up, I know a lot about my character. He's an Ordallian, was born in a city (burgher), he suffers from dwarfism (dwarf), he's really dense about most things but sometimes he's absolutely brilliant (savant), and he worships whatever the Ordallian religion is (heretic). And he can't read. Right off the bat, immediately after sign-up, I have a very distinct character.

So let's run through it with the intent to min-max. I want a real meathead, so we're going Romandan (52 Brave, 48 Faith, 100 HP, 5 Speed). We're going to make him illiterate too (55 Brave, 48 Faith, 100 HP, 5 Speed). Since it gives more Brave, we're also going to make him another city dweller (58 Brave, 50 Faith, 100 HP, 5 Speed). He's also going to be a big bastard (62 Brave, 46 Faith, 120 HP, 4 Speed). Let's make him a savant, too (65 Brave, 44 Faith, 130 HP, 4 Speed). And he's an apostate, of course, (67 Brave, 43 Faith, 130 HP, 4 Speed). Even after pushing him very far in a very specific direction, he's not so hugely divergent from the baseline (relative to it he has +17 Brave, -7 Faith, +30 HP, -1 Speed -- which isn't that much considering he made 6 choices).

Now let's make the exact opposite. He'll also be Ordallian (48 Brave, 50 Faith, 100 HP, 5 Speed). He'll be a farm hand (50 Brave, 53 Faith, 100 HP, 5 Speed). Literate, of course (50 Brave, 55 Faith, 100 HP, 5 Speed). We'll opt for Lean so we don't wind up with crazy bad speed (50 Brave, 54 Faith, 90 HP, 6 Speed). He'll be Brilliant, of course (49 Brave, 58 Faith, 90 HP, 5 Speed), and a heretic to boot (49 Brave, 60 Faith, 90 HP, 5 Speed).

You get the idea. The values will need to be tweaked and the options expanded (adding traits like "Struggles Reading," so you don't have to choose between literate and illiteracy), Ivalician potentially replaced with a "province of origin?" question (so you can take, say, Lionel and get a +Faith bonus without needed to be Ordallian), and perhaps add traits that increase/decrease starting MA/PA (which would need to be carefully regulated).

Thoughts?

[Ilium]

Apr 5, 2013 21:40:55 GMT -6 Schwerpunkt said:

The problem there is that, in practice, the "alternate" is probably going to be an awarded class. This basically means that anyone who takes a class like a Knight is probably going to take another tanky class (like Lancer or Samurai) or a faster class (like Thief or Ninja) and then pick up their alternate (which might be, say, Beowulf's Temple Knight, which gives them long-range spell options before they close and stab you in the face).

If you want real variety, let the secondary class come from anywhere. Let's have our Black Mage/Ninjas drop stupidly fast-charging fireballs on people. Let's have our Archer use Haste to make his Aim less stupidly slow. And so forth.

Yeah, that would be fine. You make a good point about alternates not always being the 'true' alternative type class. More than likely it will be a master or an awarded class. Plus that would serve to create more diversity. Monks/White Mages, Chemist/Ninjas, Knight/Oracles, etc...

But now that I mull it over, the best option (and hardest to balance) would be to do something entirely differently: namely by having secondary classes not be the full class skill list, but rather a selection of skills and bonuses designed to represent a sort of hybrid character. So, theoretically, if you took a Knight as your primary and a Black Mage as your secondary, the final character design would look something like the Rune Knight from HoI.

What this would basically entail is taking the normal Black Mage template and splitting it into two sub-templates for the secondary class option. The primary template would be for other casters and would include stuff like spells and higher stat bonuses (so that pure casters or pure fighters are very, very good at it -- and terrible at the opposite thing). So if you were a Time Mage, you might get Fire, Ice, Bolt, and Poison along with that ability that makes Black Magi do more spell damage. But if you were a Knight, you might get Imbue Weapon (which would 'charge' your weapon with a specific element, allowing your melee attacks to inflict bonus damage in the form of that elemental damage), Quid Pro Quo (which, provided you have enough MP, retaliates against enemy magic with the same spell -- but doesn't actually require you have the spell in question, just this equipped as a reaction ability).

While it'd be pretty hard to develop this kind of system and not be redundant, I think it has the most potential. Unless the HoI system, which just gives you a second job that may not even be terribly relevant to the character you're making (or may just be plain silly like my Knight/Rune Knight), it's far more interesting and unique. Now every base class evolves along with you as you play (up until you get an awarded/master class), which better represents character growth than "oh, hey, the knight somehow learned to be a ninja, too."

The problem, of course, is that you'd basically have to develop a given job three times: first as a primary, then as a secondary of the same type (which would be kind of similar to the primary), then as a secondary of the opposite type, which requires some creative thinking. For instance, I'm not entirely sure how you'd somehow combine the inherent class traits of the Lancer (which, to be frank, is just a knight with a spear anyway) with a Time Mage. It'd be a pretty difficult system to work out. But it'd also be a very cool system to work out, one that basically means no two characters will ever be the same.

While that's a great and creative idea, I just don't see the time being available for getting this developed for v1. It would be easier for myself and whoever else joins the staff if we only work with the idea of JP caps that Heroes of Ivalice developed, and call it good and go on to something else. If the time presents itself that would be awesome, we could look into it, but I would like to see this as an idea more for v2.