Summoner Development Thread

[kablizzy]

Alrighty, cats. Summoner is here! And unformatted! I've gone through the entirety of every Final Fantasy, and listed every summon from every game. I've then shaved down the list for some of the chaff (Like Summoning Goblin or a Bomb), and listed alternate names for each, and names for their abilities. It'd be kinda cool to list the ability name instead of the summon, but honestly, I'm just listing these for posterity so we can shave the list down. There's quite a few of these that I dislike, but I think this is a great pool from which to pick. Also, since the Summoner class hasn't changed much, their support / reaction / move list is very bare.

There are also a few here (Like Kirin, Unicorn, and Ixion) that are all basically the same concept, but do different things, so I've kinda indicated that herein.

Call
Chocobo* - Escape, Chocobo Kick, Deathblow, Fat Chocobo, Chocobo Stomp, ChocofireShiva* - Icen, Diamond Dust, Heavenly Strike, Glacial Shards, Shankara
Ifrit* - Heatra, Hellfire, Meteor Strike, Firebrand, Infernal Blaze, Vulcan, Calamity, Ignis
Ramuh* - Indra, Spark, Judgment Bolt, Ramih, Raiden
Titan* - Hyper, Gaia’s Wrath, Anger of the Land, Landslide
Odin* - Catastro, Zantetsuken, Steel-Bladed Sword, Obliteration, Gunge Lance, Grimnir
Leviathan* - Leviath, Tidal Wave, Tsunami
Bahamut* - Bahamur, Megaflare, Impulse, Bahamut ZERO, Teraflare, Neo Bahamut, Gigaflare, Bahamut Fury, Exaflare
Asura - Asura’s Boon (Random benefits)
Mist Dragon - Radiant Breath, White Cloud Symphony, Pure White Requiem (Current HP = More damage)
Sylph* - Whispering Wind (Silence)
Remora - Constrict, El nino (Speed Down, Thunder)
Shoat - Catoblepas, Demon Eye (Petrify)
Golem* - Earthen Wall, Gigas, Troll, Ogre, Titan (Blocks damage = to HP)
Carbuncle - Ruby Light, Diamond Light, Emerald Light, Pearl Light (Reflect)
Phoenix* - Flames of Rebirth, Phoenix Flame, Rebirth Flame (Raise, Reraise?)
Alexander - Divine Judgment, Judgment, Holy Judgment
Bismarck - Sea Song, Breach Blast
Cait Sith - Stray, Cat Rain (Confuse)
Crusader - Cleansing, Purifier, Eight Dragons Assault (Non-Elemental Damage to all)
Fenrir - Howling Moon, Millennial Decay, Moon Song (Invisible, Wind-Elemental)
Kirin - Holy Aura, Life Guard (Regen) [Kirin]
Starlet - Lakshmi, Alluring Embrace (HP Restore)
Maduin - Chaos Wave, Madeen, Terra Homing (Non-Elemental, Holy-Elemental)
Terrato - Midgardsormr, Midgar Swarm, Midgar Zolom, Jormungand, Jorgandr, Yormungand, Abyssal maw
Phantom - Ghostly Veil (Fader)
Pallidor - Quetzalli, Sonic Dive (Entire Party Jump Attack)
Ragnarok - Metamorphose (Turns opponent into Item - Poach? [Works with Loot system???], Ultima)
Raiden - Shin-Zantetsuken, True Edge, Silent Storm
Seraph - Serpahim, Angel Feathers, Reviver
Siren - Lunatic Voice, Silent Voice, Hope Song (Silence)
Unicorn - Healing Horn (Esuna)
Valigarmanda - Tritoch, Tri-Disaster, Tri-Dazer [Kujata]
Kujata - Kjata, Tetra-Disaster, Tri-Disaster [Valigarmanda]
Zoneseek - Zona Seeker, Magic Shield (Shell)
Cactuar - 1000 needles, Blow Fish (Gigantuar [ 10,000 Needles])
Diabolos - Dark Messenger, Black Hole, Dark Judgment (Magic Lamp, Quarter, Half, etc.)
Gilgamesh - Enkidu, Masamune, Excalibur, Excalipur (1 damage, 100% success, no ev), Zantetsuken
Hades - Black Cauldron (Poison, Confusion, Sleep, Silence,Mini, Frog, Slow, and Paralysis)
Knights of the Round - Ultimate End
Typhon - Chupon, Disintegration, Sneeze
Moogle - Moogle Power, Moogle Dance, Moogle Charm
Tonberry - Murderous Thrust, Chef’s Knife, Everyone’s Grudge (Insta-gib? Eh. Grudge damage based upon number of dudes slain)
Brothers - Brotherly Love (meh)
Cerberus - Counter Rockets (Doublecast, Triplecast)
Doomtrain - Runaway Train (meh)
Eden - Eternal Breath (Damage)
Quetzalcoatl - Thunder Storm
Pandemona - Tornado Zone
Griever - Pulsar
Atomos - G-Force 199, Wormhole (Gravity)
Valefor - Sonic Wings, Energy Ray, Energy Blast
Ixion - Thor’s Hammer, Aerospark [Unicorn, Kirin]
Yojimbo - "Daigoro", "Kozuka", "Wakizashi" and "Zanmato" [Odin, Gilgamesh]
Anima - Pain, Oblivion (Super Sick Nasty)
The Magus Sisters - Delta Attack (Shadow damage)
Garuda - Wind, Aero, Aerial Armor, Predator Claws
Salamander - Wyrmfire
Faerie - Fey Light
Lich - Descending Darkness
Cyclops - Climactic Fear
Zodiark - Darkening Cloud
Ultima Weapon
Omega Weapon
Calcabrina

Reaction
Critical: Restore MP

Support
Half of MP

Move

[Schwerpunkt]

Talked about this on IRC with Mord.

[2013-05-03 23:37:59] <Mordred> Moogle, Golem, Carbuncle, then 6 elements?
[2013-05-03 23:38:04] <Mordred> Dark and Holy are kind of the odd ones out.
[2013-05-03 23:38:10] <Schwerpunkt> Really don't want to see Reflect.
[2013-05-03 23:38:14] <Mordred> At all?
[2013-05-03 23:38:15] <Schwerpunkt> "hur hur mass reflect" = MOJs are fucked.
[2013-05-03 23:38:20] <Mordred> Well, yeah, fair enough
[2013-05-03 23:38:28] <Mordred> But keeping Reflect on the TM skill set = cool beans right?
[2013-05-03 23:38:31] <Schwerpunkt> I can live with one class getting a single target Reflect.
[2013-05-03 23:38:34] <Mordred> k
[2013-05-03 23:38:44] <Schwerpunkt> I dunno about it being the Time Mage. We'll have to see about how that class falls out.
[2013-05-03 23:39:06] <Schwerpunkt> Because with Haste, Slow, and Stop, he already has a pretty huge repertoire for controlling or influencing enemy actions.
[2013-05-03 23:39:09] <Mordred> Anyway, then that makes it easier. Moogle/Fairy, Golem, Ifrit, Shiva, Ramuh, Leviathan, Titan, and... uh... Odin? Who's the classic air elemental summon?
[2013-05-03 23:39:22] <Mordred> Controlling enemy actions is the Time Mage's whole raison d'etre.
[2013-05-03 23:39:33] <Schwerpunkt> We'll work that out when we get to it, then.
[2013-05-03 23:39:33] <Mordred> Cyclops?
[2013-05-03 23:39:35] <Mordred> Cyclops.
[2013-05-03 23:39:38] <Schwerpunkt> Cyclops is air?
[2013-05-03 23:39:41] <Mordred> Yeah.
[2013-05-03 23:39:43] <Mordred> In FFT anyway.
[2013-05-03 23:39:44] <Schwerpunkt> That's silly.
[2013-05-03 23:39:48] <Mordred> dunno about other FFs.
[2013-05-03 23:40:01] <Schwerpunkt> I have half a mind to just use an esper from FF6.
[2013-05-03 23:40:18] <Mordred> choke on your lies
[2013-05-03 23:40:21] <Mordred> www.ffcompendium.com/h/summon.shtml
[2013-05-03 23:40:23] <Mordred> here, help me out
[2013-05-03 23:40:56] <Schwerpunkt> Valefor.
[2013-05-03 23:41:07] <Schwerpunkt> Big winged douchebag from FF10.
[2013-05-03 23:41:13] <Mordred> FF10 is not classic FF.
[2013-05-03 23:41:23] <Mordred> also it is nonelemental in 10
[2013-05-03 23:41:27] <Schwerpunkt> Don't care on either points.
[2013-05-03 23:41:30] <Schwerpunkt> Cyclops is derpy.
[2013-05-03 23:41:43] <Mordred> <Schwerpunkt> Don't care on either points. | Die in obscurity!
[2013-05-03 23:41:48] <Schwerpunkt> In fact, I'm pretty sure "Cyclops" is Laconic for "derpy"
[2013-05-03 23:42:46] <Mordred> Tritoch could be cool.
[2013-05-03 23:43:03] <Mordred> OH
[2013-05-03 23:43:04] <Mordred> nevermind
[2013-05-03 23:43:08] <Mordred> www.ffcompendium.com/h/espmon/typhon.shtml
[2013-05-03 23:43:08] <Mordred> Typhon.
[2013-05-03 23:43:11] <Mordred> That's our boy.
[2013-05-03 23:44:36] <Mordred> So...
[2013-05-03 23:44:47] <Schwerpunkt> Typhoon I can work with.
[2013-05-03 23:45:15] <Mordred> www.ffcompendium.com/art/t-golem-a.jpg
[2013-05-03 23:45:16] <Schwerpunkt> We are like way the fuck off track here
[2013-05-03 23:45:19] <Mordred> Look at that cutie.
[2013-05-03 23:45:29] <Schwerpunkt> shadow of the golem
[2013-05-03 23:45:33] <Mordred> So Moogle, Golem, Ifrit, Shiva, Ramuh, Titan, Leviathan, Typhon. Wool.
[2013-05-03 23:45:45] <Mordred> Wool? No, that is not a sheep-elemental summon.
[2013-05-03 23:45:48] <Schwerpunkt> Here's a more modern version of that golem: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/Pyrite_from_Ampliaci%C3%B3n_a_Victoria_Mine%2C_Navaj%C3%BAn%2C_La_Rioja%2C_Spain_2.jpg/511px-Pyrite_from_Ampliaci%C3%B3n_a_Victoria_Mine%2C_Navaj%C3%BAn%2C_La_Rioja%2C_Spain_2.jpg
[2013-05-03 23:45:56] <Mordred> lol
[2013-05-03 23:46:04] <Mordred> Wait, I forgot someone.
[2013-05-03 23:46:20] <Mordred> Bahamut.
[2013-05-03 23:46:22] <Mordred> There we go.
[2013-05-03 23:46:26] <Mordred> Gotta have Bahamut.
[2013-05-03 23:46:51] <Schwerpunkt> Frickin' dragons, mang
[2013-05-03 23:47:12] <Mordred> Bahamut is the iconic summon.
[2013-05-03 23:47:13] <Schwerpunkt> What're we doing with Bahamut? Non-elemental?
[2013-05-03 23:47:30] <Mordred> Yeah.
[2013-05-03 23:47:40] <Mordred> Since we can't have Zodiac, Bahamut gets to be the ultimate summon.
[2013-05-03 23:50:07] <Mordred> Or Odin.
[2013-05-03 23:50:15] <Mordred> Or Cyclops! I know how much you love Cyclops.
[2013-05-03 23:50:53] <Schwerpunkt> Not sure I like the idea of an "ultimate" summon.
[2013-05-03 23:51:35] <Mordred> I do! :haw:
[2013-05-03 23:51:57] <Mordred> Wizards get Flare, Priests get Holy, Time Mages get Meteor, Oracles get..., Summoners get Bahamut.
[2013-05-03 23:51:58] <Mordred> It's only fair.
[2013-05-03 23:52:40] <Schwerpunkt> I guess.
[2013-05-03 23:52:52] <Schwerpunkt> Still, that's ten abilities.
[2013-05-03 23:52:58] <Mordred> Ten?
[2013-05-03 23:53:03] <Mordred> I count nine.
[2013-05-03 23:53:18] <Mordred> Moogle, Golem, Ifrit, Shiva, Ramuh, Titan, Leviathan, Typhon, Bahamut.
[2013-05-03 23:53:20] <Schwerpunkt> But what about the textile elemental?
[2013-05-03 23:53:24] <Mordred> lol
[2013-05-03 23:53:33] <Mordred> We can have it as a hidden Blue Magic-style unlockable.
[2013-05-03 23:53:53] <Mordred> Summon Wool! the battlefield is converted to wool-elemental tiles.
[2013-05-03 23:54:00] <Mordred> Geomancers can use their feared Static Shock powers.

So.


Moogle - Healing.
Golem - Maybe something like protect + shell.
Ifrit - Fire damage.
Shiva - Ice damage.
Ramuh - Lightning damage.
Titan - Earth damage.
Leviathan - Water damage.
Typhon - Air damage.
Bahamut - Non-elemental damage.

Not sure about reactions/support/move.

[kablizzy]

I'm okay with that list. I was hoping we could fit in a host of non-fft espers and such (Terrato was always a fucking beast-a-thon, and Alexander and Diabolos are favorites of mine), but that's more of a personal preference thing, and definitely not necessary.

Here are my only two actual issues with Summoner - first and foremost, if we're staying true to the class concepts that we've built along POJ lines, Summoner and Wizard are going to fill almost identical roles - Summoner is AoE damage, Wizard is AoE damage. Summoner has a slightly larger range, but also traditionally does more damage. Perhaps we focus Wizard on a longer range, and single-targeting? That might work. Just scads of single-target damage for Wizard (Giving us the option to open up a couple more abilities there [Wizard, counting all of the elemental damage-spells, only has room for 3 more]).

And second, no Reaction / Support / Move abilities, and I have no idea what to do there. I might troll through the wiki tonight and try and come up with some for this.

[kablizzy]

Name	Description	MP	Range	Effect	Speed	JP
Enervate	Recovers a slight bit of MP.	0	0	Self	Now	0
Moogle	Moogle Charm. An esper that soothes injuries with a purifying breeze, restoring HP. Quote: "Kupo! Round and round you go! Moogle Charm!"	8	4	3	34	150
Shiva	Diamond Dust. An esper with punishingly frigid breath. Element: Ice. Quote: "Wind, fade to silence and light, give us power! Diamond Dust!"	24	4	3	25	400
Ramuh	Judgment Bolt. An esper that relentlessly rains down lightning. Element: Lightning. Quote: "Master of creation, impart thy help! Judgment Bolt!"	24	4	3	25	400
Ifrit	Hellfire. An esper whose breath of flame scorches the battlefield. Element: Fire. Quote: "King of flames, burn into cinders! Hellfire!"	24	4	3	25	400
Titan	Anger of the Land. An esper that levels the earth with a mighty blow. Element: Earth. Quote: "Bear down with land energy! Anger of the Land!"	30	4	3	20	550
Golem	Earthen Wall. An esper that casts Shell and Protect on allies in range. Quote: "Earth-minded soul, protect us! Earthen Wall!"	40	4	3	34	200
Leviathan	Tidal Wave. An esper that engulfs the battlefield in a massive tidal wave. Element: Water. Quote: "Sea fang, attack with water's power! Tidal Wave!"	48	4	3	12	750
Typhon	Sneeze. An esper that cuts through enemies with a razor-sharp wind. Element: Air. Quote: "He's not so great with words, but his strength'll blow you away! Sneeze!"	55	4	3	30	850
Bahamut	Megaflare. An esper that attacks with its fearsome breath. Quote: "Scorch with dragon flame! Megaflare!"	60	4	3	10	1000

Reaction

Name	Description	Trigger	JP
Critical Recover MP	Recover MP when critically wounded.	Critical	400
Recover MP	Recover MP when wounded.	HP Loss	250
Disengage	Run away when hit.	HP Loss	400

Support

Name	Description	JP
3/4 MP	Reduce MP consumption by 25% when using magicks.	900
??	Cannot be interrupted while charging.	500
??	Reduces damage penalty while charging.	400

Movement

Name	Description	JP
??	Jump +1 while charging	Row 2 column 3

Exactly 6000 JP. Howabout that?

[Schwerpunkt]

I'd rather just name the abilities after the summons. The summon names are much more iconic.

Half MP is horribly overpowered unless we explicitly make all the summoners super expensive. Critical Recover MP is just weird; if you get knocked into critical range, you need HP, not MP. MP isn't going to mean much when the very next hit kills you.




Alright, so.
0 JP ability - I'd add an ability that recovers 2.5% of the caster's MP when used. It's trivial enough that it has very little impact on the battle, but it works with these really high MP costs. It also happens to jive well with secondaries.

Support
1. Summoners are going to spend a lot of time charging. Something that removes the damage penalty imposed while charging is good.
2. Since you're spending a lot of time charging, interrupts are a threat. Add an ability that makes it impossible to be interrupted while charging spells.

The two of these are both very viable and forcing the player to choose between two very useful skills is basically what we want to do.



Reaction
1. Recover MP on hit. Probably something like 25% of damage received.
2. A disengage-esque ability, where the Summoner physically moves backwards (if possible) when hit. This one's very situational; it helps you disengage, but it's not a good ability to pick if you're fighting on a map with lots of height variations.


Movement
1. +1 Jump while charging.



I'd theme all the support abilities around summoners we're not using.

[kablizzy]

Even if we overcost the summons, choosing this as a secondary / Support class would be problematic at best. So Half MP is awkward, you're right.

I love both Support abilities.

I've got a Reaction ability like MP on hit (Or do I?) In calculator, and we have more than enough there to port it over here easily.

I actually like pretty much all of that. We'll have to move costs down a smidge to compensate, but shouldn't be a problem.

[Schwerpunkt]

So, for naming the support/movement abilities, what summons do you like that don't show up in the active spell list? I'm not at all above cannibalizing unused summons for names.

And I don't like anything that reduces MP cost. The simple fact of the matter is that summons will be extremely hard to use early on (by virtue of shoddy MP growth) -- and this will be at a point when 3/4ths MP is probably too expensive to pick up. By the time you get to when it's not all that expensive to pick up, MP growth has progressed to the point where it's entirely unnecessary. It simply becomes problematic late game (especially with secondaries), since it completely skews the balance equations.

MP will always increase as levels are gained and new items are obtained (barring really weird item progression, which is a separate design issue). MP costs should also increase.

[kablizzy]

Actually, I like that concept a lot - cool naming convention. Uhhh, if the ones not included, I have a bit of a soft spot for the following -

Shoat
Carbuncle
Phoenix
Alexander
Bismarck
Maduin
Terrato (Who shows up in FFT as Midgar Swarm)
Pallidor
Diabolos
Griever
Atomos
Anima
Zodiark (Also in FFT)

[Schwerpunkt]

Shoat is silly.

Carbuncle is reflect-themed. Maybe a candidate for preventing the interrupt.

Phoenix is all about rebirth. That works with the "recover MP on hit."

Alexander is a friggin' monstrosity in FF9. Reducing damage received while charging makes sense.

Bismarck is a whale. Don't see how we can integrate that.

Maduin is just weird. Some demon-thing that deals holy damage. It's also more of a plot device than a proper summon.

Midgardsormr is going to show up in Romanda, I think. I mean, it has to. The etymology says so.

Palidor is pretty uninteresting. It might work with the disengage-esque ability.

Diabolos is cheesy. And not in a good way.

Griever only shows up in FF8 and I honestly believe it's much more interesting as a motif than as a summon.

Atomos is awesome, but I don't think he really jives with any of these abilities.

Anima is one of my favorites -- too bad he's really only prominent in FF10.



So, for the damage reduction while charging: Alexander's Resolve.
For the "nyah-nyah no interrupt," Carbuncle's Grace.
Recover MP on Hit: something themed for Anima or Phoenix.
Disengage: I'm in favor of Atmos, but Palidor (probably as Quezcali) works too.
Movement: Honestly, I don't like the movement ability here. But I can't think of anything better.

[Mordred]

Summons are traditionally the most MP-intensive of magics, which means Summoners have an inherent advantage when multiclassing into other mage classes. I think that to mitigate this, Summoners should also be the slowest and physically frailest of mages. Most of the other magics we're discussing are instant-cast, so Summons having charge times already wins us half the battle.

Differentiating Wizard-Summoners from Summoner-Wizards is already halfway done: if Summons have very high MP costs, a Wizard-Summoner (or Priest-Summoner or etc) is restricted in summoning by their relatively lower MP pool, whereas a Summoner-Wizard is restricted in Black Mageing by the Channeler class feature which he doesn't possess (if you take my idea posted in the Wizard thread).

Summoner-Priest isn't a half-bad idea, except for the part where the Summoner can't use Staves, whose Holy-elemental status strengthens White Magic.
Summoner-Oracle would be a devastating combo, except that Yin-Yang Magic requires you to get closer to your enemies than Summon Magic, so it's a real risk for a squishy Summoner to get in close.
Summoner-Time Mage is probably the safest dual class for Summoners, and I can't come up with a reason not to take it. Hmm.

Overall, I think summons should NOT deliver friendly fire, but should only be targetable on a fixed area rather than a unit. If you turn on friendly fire on effects this big, you will never have a decent use for summons unless you get your entire party to equip Absorb:Element items.

Also, Golem shouldn't grant Protect/Shell; that's 100% the Priest's turf. Rather, I think Golem should grant a custom "Golem" status effect that fully absorbs one physical attack then dissipates.

Using summons as the R/S/M abilities is also a great idea. I vote for Atomos over Palidor, but no worries either way.

Extra Jump while charging, though, has to be one of the saddest movement skills ever. We can do better than that, I hope.

[Schwerpunkt]

"Enervate" would not regen MP. It'd do the exact opposite. "Energize" or "Innervate" is what you're looking for, Kablizzy.

Golem as a special effect is cool. I like this.

And yeah, +1 Jump while Charging is hilariously bad. But I'm out of ideas.

So, the RSMs:
Alexander's Resolve, Carbuncle's Grace, Anima's Reprieve, Palidor's Aid. Just because Atmos' Aid and Atmos' Blessing sound stupid.

[Mordred]

Is it Atmos or Atomos? I'm never sure.

Move-MP Up isn't good enough for ol' Summony? Or... Summoners could get Fly, like they're physically picked up by a summon and deposited where they want to go. Could be cool, and not really gamebreaking since it's just giving them a lot of Jump (which they might need since they're going to be staying back from the action).

[kablizzy]

Original Dancer had Fly, which was just freakin' weird.

[Schwerpunkt]

Fly would work, provided we didn't add any range and simply turned it into a glorified 'ignore elevation' movement ability.

But it may be problematic when the Summoner's vertical game is better than the Lancer's.

[Mordred]

The Lancer's vertical game is unstoppable with Jump... also, don't Lancers get Ignore Height as an inherent?