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Post by kablizzy on Apr 26, 2013 21:37:45 GMT -6
Thread for all discussion regarding the Lancer class. Notes: - Definitely more varied ideas and a better identity. I don't want Lancer to be "Monk that Jumps."
- I'd like to see a focus on certain aspects, like, the range: 2 of Lances, the jumping, and something else.
- I like the concept of Bravery being a big part of Lancer.
- I really like Transfuse, but it doesn't fit the theme of the class. Maybe as a support ability.
- I'd keep Dragonheart, but probably rename it. I'd like to see something themed around anger, where the Lancer just gets so pissed off that he revives and gains Berserk
- maybe a reaction ability that gives you a chance to disarm someone if you successfully parry their attack.
- I don't like Auto-____ because it doesn't fit the theme and it's too easy to abuse with a secondary (Ninja/Lancer with auto-haste -- fun).
- I do like Lance Mastery and Steel Bravery, although Steel Bravery would probably need a new name -- something like Hardened Resolve, maybe.
- I could also see something like Spirit of Nidhoggr/Jormungandr/Fafnir, which would give free bonus damage (~15%) of a specific element (probably Fire, Ice, and Lightning, respectively) to every attack.
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Schwerpunkt
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Post by Schwerpunkt on Apr 27, 2013 2:26:30 GMT -6
So, because it'll probably come up, I do not want to use the dragoon title that shows up WotL. A dragoon is a cavalryman that rides to battle on a horse (I initially typed whore; Freudian slip?) and fights while dismounted. Basically, dragoons were some of the earliest "motorized history" in warfare (Frederick William's "great sleigh drive" being an earlier example). So unless dragoons start the battle while mounted, calling them dragoons doesn't work. Lancers (and demi-lancers) typically did fight mounted, but the name is just derived from their weapon, which the Lancer class shares, so I don't see the harm in copying it. Broad strokes on the abilities. Tier I 1 - True Strike, as described, with the added benefit of adding Provoke. 2 - Lancet, as described, to give low-level lancers a ranged attack and high-level lancers (or secondaries) the ability to steal MP. 3 - Falling Strike, an ability you can only use when at a higher height than the target; damage dealt is based upon how much higher you are. 100% chance of knockback, at which point the Lancer takes the dude's spot. If the target cannot be knocked back, Falling Strike cannot fire. Tier II 4 - Javelin, which is a ranged attack for ~75% damage that has a ~30% chance to interrupt spellcasting. 5 - War Cry, which functions as an aoe and applies Provoke to multiple units. Additionally, increases the brave of all allies in the aoe by 1-2 (temp). 6 - Reis' Wind, to give the Lancer something to do with all that MP he's stealing. Tier III 7 - Jump. Spears do 130% damage, Halberds do 150%, all other weapons do 100%. As distance increases, the time it takes to hit the target increases (probably 10 CT/tile). 8 - Terrifying Strike, which does 80% damage and applies Terror (the vastly more sensible replacement for Sleep, which is otherwise exactly the same). The probability that Terror is applied increases if the Lancer's Brave rating is higher than that of the target, otherwise it's a flat 10%. 9 - Sweeping Strikes, which is basically Rain of Lances, with the character's brave dictating how many times he attacks (probably something like truncate(Brave/20) = attacks). Basically, the Lancer just starts smacking people around him randomly for ~60% damage per hit. This would have a maximum effect of dealing 300% damage at 100 Brave and no real control over how many times you beat down your own allies. I really like Transfuse, but it doesn't fit the theme of the class. Maybe as a support ability. For Reaction, I'd cut counter-jump. It'd either lock down your next turn for no real reason or just flat out miss because the guy who shot you is insanely far away. Or it'd be horrifically overpowered if it could apply to guys fairly near you. I'd keep Dragonheart, but probably rename it. I'd like to see something themed around anger, where the Lancer just gets so pissed off that he revives and gains Berserk. Other than that, maybe a reaction ability that gives you a chance to disarm someone if you successfully parry their attack. Support's a bit clunkier. I don't like Auto-____ because it doesn't fit the theme and it's too easy to abuse with a secondary (Ninja/Lancer with auto-haste -- fun). I do like Lance Mastery and Steel Bravery, although Steel Bravery would probably need a new name -- something like Hardened Resolve, maybe. I could also see something like Spirit of Nidhoggr/Jormungandr/Fafnir, which would give free bonus damage (~15%) of a specific element (probably Fire, Ice, and Lightning, respectively) to every attack. And Jump +5 instead of Ignore Elevation. +4 is kind of weak since we're possibly handing out +3 to another class; +5 gives us a very high bonus without the potential nonsense of Ignore Elevation (like when you're attacked by Zalmo in that one city and you jump up the tower and start poking him with your spear). Plus it helps prevent Falling Strike from being spammed relentlessly for wtfhuge damage. |
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Post by Tendehka on Apr 27, 2013 14:55:57 GMT -6
Looking over this briefly: The Lancer has had one historically huge issue - Jump is almost impossible to balance.
If it takes cast times into account, it's useless because anyone will move out of the way in time. If it doesn't, it's horrifyingly broken because you can stab people from anywhere on the map. How we deal with that really effects how useful the class would be.
The other thing I'm noticing is that Falling Strike is situational to the point of borderline useless. "Okay. I need to make sure I can get above them in a position where they can be knocked back. I just need to never fight on plains and always hope I have enough move to flank around enemies just so I can use one of my abilities."
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Post by kablizzy on Apr 27, 2013 15:10:57 GMT -6
There are ways to balance Jump that lie between "Stab anyone from anywhere on the map" and "Dude will move out of the way". For instance, Jump as a singular ability can be any range we want, any CT we want, and any damage we want.
The cool thing about this is if we can put a CT charge to it, hopefully, it'd be just useful enough that some classes could potentially edit their turn (Thief's Feint, Knight's Defend, etc.). Especially taking into consideration that hopefully, tactics-writers will have the option to wait for a specific amount of CT (Not a variable amount, but a 'Wait' Command, perhaps), Jump's success rate would rather be dependent upon how smart your opponent is - A cool balancing tool. In that regard, it doesn't fall into useless or broken, because there are ways around it if your opponent is smart with their CT tactics, and better if they are not.
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Schwerpunkt
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Post by Schwerpunkt on Apr 27, 2013 15:57:49 GMT -6
The other thing I'm noticing is that Falling Strike is situational to the point of borderline useless. "Okay. I need to make sure I can get above them in a position where they can be knocked back. I just need to never fight on plains and always hope I have enough move to flank around enemies just so I can use one of my abilities." It's a Tier I ability that's instant-cast, does more damage the higher you are, and knocks the enemy back. It's basically an instant-cast but weaker jump. If it were actually easier to use, it'd be Jump. The reason the conditionals are there are to give it some unique abilities and really drive home the fact that the Lancer is most dangerous when you're fighting him places where he can exploit his climbing abilities -- mountains and cities, predominantly. If you're stuck on a plain, yeah, I suppose Falling Strike isn't going to be hugely useful. But then again, that's no different than with other classes. Tier I skills tend to be less universally viable and more about niche capability. |
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Post by kablizzy on Apr 29, 2013 11:50:49 GMT -6
Alright! Finally getting around to detailing this one.
True Strike is pretty standard. Same with Lancet, it's a staple for Final Fantasy Dragoon / Lancers.
falling strike is a nifty idea. Not sure how useful it'll end up being, but I like the mini-jump thing.
Javelin is something I didn't even consider. Should the Lancer lose his lance?
War Cry, Jump, and Reis' Wind are pretty standard.
Terrifying Strike is cool, with the exception that I'm having a hard time keeping track of all the new status effects. Perhaps I'll get more used to 'em as time goes on.
Transfuse has been in a few Lancer / Dragoon builds over the years, but not enough to make me think it's a staple.
Anything Auto___ would likely be priced so as to be Primary-only, unless it's auto-thumb-up-my-ass.
I love the spirit support ability that raises elemental damage.
And Jump +5 tentatively until we figure out what the rest of our move abilities are actually gonna come out to be. I definitely want Lancer to have the highest jump (Obv).
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Schwerpunkt
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Post by Schwerpunkt on Apr 29, 2013 14:06:25 GMT -6
Terror is just a direct replacement for Sleep. Sleep, as a battle status effect, makes no sense whatsoever. Have you ever been in a fistfight and, halfway through, you've suddenly decided to take a nap? If the answer is "yes," you probably got hit in the head really hard. People are going into battle with adrenaline pumping and applying Sleep doesn't make any sense given that. Terror, however, does. It's something soldiers have had to deal with since they first started soldiering. Hell, it's fundamentally ingrained in our genetics as one half of the flight-or-fight response. As I see it, Terror doing the exact same thing as Sleep, mechanically speaking, is an overall improvement. Plus the RP consequences are awesome.
Other than that, Hemorrhage is a bleed DoT effect to represent significant blood loss. It's basically a non-elemental version of Poison. Provoke is just a taunt. And I think that's as far as I've gone with new status effects.
Transfuse I just don't like as a Lancer ability. It's the kind of skill that I can see going into the civilian pool, honestly, rather than being given to any specific class.
Javelin is just a ranged attack. Pretty much everyone needs at least one to minimize kiting (y helo thar pende's gun-toting Mediator/Ninja). Upon closer review, I'm in favor of dropping the interrupt effect entirely. It gives the ability too much utility when the ranged attacks for melee classes are basically "I can't reach you, so here's a little bit of damage for you to remember me by."
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Post by kablizzy on Apr 30, 2013 0:33:25 GMT -6
There are other reasons for Sleeping. Magic, for instance. Also, strong sleeping drugs. And a hilarious, boring diatribe from a Mediator. Although I do see the benefit behind Terror, and I can get behind it.
The rest, I think I'm good with.
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Schwerpunkt
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Post by Schwerpunkt on Apr 30, 2013 8:08:08 GMT -6
Well, I don't see the harm in Terror having the exact same effect as Sleep and existing alongside it. I suppose it can't hurt much. I just don't want to see "I hit you with my sword, therefore you fall asleep" like with that one very silly sword in FFT.
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Post by kablizzy on Apr 30, 2013 17:47:09 GMT -6
Oh yeah, there was totally a sleep-inducing sword, wasn't there? In either case, I'ma put up a hybrid build here so we can continue forward. Also, I've been working on Summoner (It's got eleven shittons of class options open to it) for when we're on to MOJ classes. I'll likely be rummaging through Wizard and Priest as well. Thread for all discussion regarding the Lancer class. Abilities I'm not a huge fan of: Falling Strike, Infuse. I guess I do like 'em, but they're my least favorite of the abilities up there. Also, we'd have to cut an AoE ability or two from this list, as we have quite a few. Merged Terrifying Strike into Gungnir as one of the ultimate class abilities. Merged Dragon's Roar / War Cry, we can edit those as needed. |
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Post by kablizzy on May 1, 2013 21:33:43 GMT -6
Waiting for Ilium / Schwer input on this as well. First post hasn't been edited yet pending approval from you guys.
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Schwerpunkt
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Post by Schwerpunkt on May 2, 2013 7:27:50 GMT -6
It's clunky when you have so many different names on the sheet.
Reaction: Dragonheart. It works, it's thematic, and it's canon.
Lancet, as per discussion with sunspawn, shouldn't deal MP damage. He was correct in pointing out that basically every POJ so far is able to kick casters and in the balls and that's kind of 'lolno.' I'd rather see Lancet drain a small amount of health and then restore that value as both health and MP to the Lancer.
True Strike has a similar name to Honor Strike and it basically does the same exact thing. This is one point where I'd rather we were direct and to the point instead of referencing dragons.
Crimson Wings or Fire Breath or Dragon Breath. The Lancer should not be doing a significant amount of aoe damage (beyond people standing next to him), so he should only get one.
Javelin needs to lose its chance to interrupt. No other ranged attack has it and it's way too easy to abuse.
Whirlwind Strike > Ring of Talons.
Dragon's Roar is a workable name. Although we could totally get silly and call it the 'Thoom.'
Naturally, I prefer Sweeping Strikes over Rain of Lances because there's not any actual weapon falling from the sky.
I'd rather have Gungnir show up as an actual spear (since FF does that kind of thing regularly). Not sure what I'd use instead, though.
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sunspawn
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Post by sunspawn on May 2, 2013 11:50:59 GMT -6
I say axe the dragon references and breath skills and just leave it as a guy with a spear whose can fight at mid-range(range 2 for regular spear attacks/skills and jump for more range at the cost of longer charge/something). Dragon references can go to some dragon slaying prestige class.
What ARE we doing with Jump's range?
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Post by kablizzy on May 2, 2013 12:06:33 GMT -6
Dragoons / Lancers are dragon-themed, though.
Gungnir as a weapon is cool, as that's pretty canonical. We'd have to find a replacement for it.
I'm okay with Javelin as just ranged damage, but remember that we also have jump as technically ranged damage.
I'd prefer Ring of Talons over Whirlwind Strike, personally. This is perhaps the only ability name I even remotely feel strongly about, but even so, it's not a huge deal.
I agree that we should lesson the AoE damage sources, and I suppose of those, I like Crimson Wings.
I'm okay with Lancet only doing HP damage to bring it back in line.
Good enough for me on True Strike.
And good on Dragonheart. Will edit a bit later this evening.
Edit: I figured that Jump would have a range of 8 v 8, with CT going up by 10 per square.
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Mordred
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Post by Mordred on May 2, 2013 13:33:02 GMT -6
Jump as an 8v8 range is insanely broken; it means Lancers can take over Archers' roles while still being dangerous personal combatants. I think Lancers' Jump should be the centerpiece of the class' mobility: Jump should have a range equal to their Move range. Once you Jump, you stay where you land. This means that Lancers become, essentially jetpack infantry. You Jump into the enemy lines, deal as much damage as you can, then hopefully Jump back out before you get overwhelmed and destroyed. This makes a Lancer's play style much riskier, since it requires you to weather a counterattack from the enemy before you can escape if you use your unique mobility to invade their back lines to get at their squishies. As it is in FFT, the Jump command is basically a giant "fuck you" to Archers and I'd like to get as far away from that as possible.  |
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