Chemist Development Thread

[kablizzy]

This thread is for all discussions related to the Chemist.

The following is the most updated list we have for Chemist thusfar. Original FFT build can be found here.

Alchemy
120 - Equip Change (Shared with Squire)
250 - First Aid (Shared with Squire and Knight)
350 - Throw Item
450 - Stash - Use an item not from stock
520 - Molotov
1200 - W-Item - Use 2 items in a turn

Reaction
400 - Auto-Potion

Support
370 - Pharmacist - Potions are doubled in effect
250 - Gained JP-Up (Shared with Squire)
250 - Maintenance (Shared with Squire)
420 - Expanded Backpack - Can carry extra items into battle (Redundant with Stash?)
600 - Inoculation - The Alchemist, a master of medicines, would never go without an inoculation against illness.

Movement
100 - Move - Find Item

(5280 JP)

Notes:

• Unfinished; Need more offensive abilities, more of an identity.
• Mixing and !Mix would be awesome, although the 18 x 18 table we had for Alchemist is not going to happen.
• We may have to choose between some of the shared abilities. For instance, Equip Change and Maintenance strike me as more Squire-y, whereas Gained JP up and First Aid strike me as more Chemist-y.
• As with other classes, it'd be cool to see at least one non-combat effect / bonus for each class. My suggestion for Chemist would be something with making potions in a PT, or bonus to healing temporary injuries.
• We can also just cut Chemist, and give Alchemist some amazing stuff.

[Schwerpunkt]

My problem with adding neat stuff here (like Molotov, which is anachronistic but let's not get into that) is that cool stuff here, for the Chemist, means less awesome stuff for the Alchemist. Since I don't see any way to have a Chemist that doesn't make an Alchemist unnecessary (or just "more of the same, but higher damage coefficients"), I'd rather just cut it.

[Mordred]

Thought about Chemist at work today starting from the FFT template. Came to the conclusion that I got nothing.

Item as a skill set is borked. The entire class revolves around spending Gil on items, which is Gil Eater fail. If you make the items free when a Chemist tosses them, then the Chemist gives instant ranged healing and status negation at no cost, which makes Priests look like scrubs except for their buff powers and Holy. If you slap an MP cost on Chemist item powers, then meet Priest Jr.

I'm not going to say "we should cut Chemists," but I am going to say "I can't think of a reason not to cut Chemists, toss the Item skillset, let all classes use items on themselves without knowing any particular skill, fold whatever skills are left (including Throw Item) into Squire, and let Archers equip Guns."

[Schwerpunkt]

I would like to fold Chemistry into the generic skill pool as a crafting option for potions and other consumables. Not much is left that we can actually, y'know, give to the Squire.

Besides, the spirit of the Chemist will return in the form of the prestige class Alchemist, who gets to throw flash bangs and shit.

[Mordred]

Crafting is not a combat skill. Every class needs battlefield power, else it should not be a class. If the Alchemist is a class whose main feature is crafting, all I can say is ಠ_ಠ

I can see the appeal in a class that throws grenades and stuff, but that's what wizards are for.

Giving every class the ability to use items on themselves natively as a phantom "extra" Job Command is my best idea.

Throw Item, Auto-Potion, and Maintenance are the three abilities worth porting into Squire, IMO.

[Schwerpunkt]

The Alchemist would be a class whose main skill is SCIENCE! (emphasis is important). But I suppose we'll talk about it when we get to that point.

Auto-Potion seems kind of imba unless it actually consumes the potion. Throw Item I can see.

Maintenance really should be a generic skill given how wtfuseful it is.

[Mordred]

Yeah, it would definitely consume the potion.

I don't know if I'd say Maintenance is really all that useful, since AFAIK only Knights make it their business to knock peoples' shit off. Actually, might as well cut Maintenance, then, since all it is is a skill that says "HA HA HA F U" to disarm moves.

So, I guess make that Auto-Potion and Throw Item.

[kablizzy]

In all honesty, I've got nothing here also. Making Alchemist a Prestige class is easy, fun, and flavorful, and if we've really got no reason to keep this, then I'd rather give it the axe, lock down the thread, and figure out what the Hell we're going to do to with Squire. Also, this may act as a kind of domino effect, and we can go two ways - If we get something decent for Squire, we'd need an additional MOJ and HOJ job, and we have a ton to choose from in the General Class Discussion thread. The alternate domino effect is that we can now make a hefty case for also cutting Squire, since thusfar, we've only come up with cool, generic ideas. And at that, if that's the way we end up going, we can either leave the trees at that, or enter one extra POJ, MOJ, and HOJ job to shore up numbers. The difference would be 15 vs. 18 total classes, I believe.

[Schwerpunkt]

Solution: Axe Chemist (and Mime, obviously). This gives us 6 POJ and 5 each of HOJ/MOJ. We then combine Bard/Dancer for Performer, giving us 6 POJ, 5 MOJ, and 4 HOJ. Then we drop the Samurai in HOJ because -- and let's be realistic here -- using your sword to invoke area of effect damage is not something the other POJs can do.

Lancer is also a possibility, but the Lancer's "magic" is largely just the Lancer being an athlete badass and, apparently, channeling his inner Thu'um.

By kicking Samurai over to HOJ we get 5 in each tree and 15 total.

[kablizzy]

Not a bad idea, actually. I was also pondering moving Samurai to HOJ since they really, really are hybrid. We may have to tweak a couple Samurai things from there, but it's already 80% there and most of the tweaking would be in formula.

Not a bad idea, actually. I was also pondering moving Samurai to HOJ since they really, really are hybrid. We may have to tweak a couple Samurai things from there, but it's already 80% there and most of the tweaking would be in formula.

So, going off that, this is what we'd be looking at, and honestly, we've been looking at Samurai joining the HOJ tree for a while, and Bard / Dancer can be *easily* combined into Performer (I've got tons of stuff for Performer, whereas I didn't have as much for Bard). After this, the only roadblock would be Squire, but in the instance that we decide to cut Squire from POJ, we could potentially add Berserker to POJ to shore it up, although I'm not sure about that. But just in case, any ideas on what we could replace Squire with in the instance that we don't come up with anything there?

POJ	MOJ	HOJ
Squire	Wizard	Monk
Knight	Priest	Geomancer
Archer	Time Mage	Mediator
Thief / Bandit	Summoner	Performer
Lancer	Calculator / Scholar	Red Mage
Ninja	Oracle	Samurai

[Mordred]

The idea that we need a certain number of HOJes is kind of misleading because isn't the whole point of the HOJ category to be a catchall for the crap that doesn't quite fit elsewhere? I mean, the acronym - Hybrid Only Job - is kind of lolarious all by itself.

I don't think Berserker is good enough as a concept to be a whole class unto itself, tbqh. If you were dead set on throwing something in, though.... hmm. Some kind of Lord or Tactician class?

[Mordred]

Actually, holy Jesus, I just looked at that list. What the crap are Red Mages doing in this game? Having secondary ability sets makes Red Mages worse than unnecessary, it makes them actively harmful to other magic classes. Why would you ever pick Priest or Wizard secondary if Red Mage is an option?

Every class needs its role. Red Mages, by definition, have the role of "I do those other 2 guys' jobs. Except worse." We have Secondary (and Tertiary if we keep that) ability sets in the game specifically to make it possible for all characters to occupy two (or three) roles; why do people with Red Mage characters get three (or four)?

I'm going to go out on a limb here by making a blanket generalization (feel free to give me a wedgie if I'm wrong), but I'm gonna say no class should copy any other class' action abilities. Red Mages are a humongous violation of that principle. If you wanna play Red Mage, go Priest-Wizard or Wizard-Priest.

TBQH, if we were in a cutting mood, I'd say trim Squire, Calculator, and Red Mage. Unless someone's had brain waves about Calculator that I haven't heard about.

EDIT: Or, just to piss off Schwer, we could cut Thief instead of Squire.

[kablizzy]

Hybrid-Oriented, but yeah. Gunner seems decent, although I'm afeared it would run aground a bit on Archer / Machinist's toes. Dunno there.

I think we'd likely have better chances working on Squire as well, but I'm also conceptualizing our worst-cast scenario.

[Schwerpunkt]

First off, I'm extremely hesitant to even consider moving the Berserker in as a regular class. It's very much Romandan at this point; I've built a mini-faction, a town, and some NPCs around the concept. It also ties back into Theorungr (which I haven't posted yet). I'd really rather not have to throw all of this out and start over unless there is an extremely good reason to do so. Especially since, as Mord noted, the class without its firm cultural and religious grounding is extremely unremarkable.

I'd much rather see Squires at least be given the opportunity to show up in beta. They have a fairly unique niche at this point that they deserve that much. I honestly don't think they'll pass muster (I'm really unimpressed so far; they seem thus far to be designed almost entirely to provide flexibility to their secondary (or primary) class and the prestige). For instance, something like Squire/Spellsword/Outrider would potentially be incredibly viable. But it would require suffering through 10-15 levels of an extremely meh class.

So let the Squire have his day in court. And if the verdict is he sucks and should be ashamed of it, we can figure out what to do with his slot then.

[kablizzy]

That works also. Just taking precautions and such.