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Post by kablizzy on May 30, 2013 13:27:03 GMT -6
Okay, so development on classes has stagnated a bit, and I wanna get everyone back on the same page. There's a few things we need to re-hash; 1. What base classes are we going to include? First, we need a definitive list of classes to include in the game. Thusfar, we've got a pretty good list going, but there have been a few points of contention. Squire, Chemist, Calculator, Bard, Dancer, Red Mage, Blue Mage, Shaman, Berserker, and Illusionist are all classes that have a claim to be in the game. Every time I go through classes, I come up with this list, and I'd like for this to be the one we roll with for the beta, as it will give us an idea of validity of these classes. Going into this, I'd like to see three things happen: 1a. I'd like to see every class included, if we can. In my eyes, there's no such thing as a 'Class that won't work,' just unwillingness to do what's necessary to make it work. There are roadblocks in flavor and roadblocks in mechanics, but we've come up with a plethora of ideas for each of these, and I think we've got enough flavor to work with. There are a few things that separate each class, in terms of class roles -
| Damage Type: | Physical | Magical | Hybrid |
| | Class Role: | DPS | Tank | Support |
| | Ability Range | Melee | 2-3 (Short) | 4-5 (Mid) | 5+ (Long) |
1. Physical, Magical, or Hybrid? What type of damage does the class do? Is it based upon weapons (physical), spells (magical), or some combination thereof?
2. DPS / Tank / Support? What role does the class fill in combat? Are they primarily there to damage (DPS), take damage (Tank), or Heal / Buff / Debuff (Support)?
3. Class Theme / Focus? What's the class's flavor? How are the skills represented and how does the class concept make this class unique? What else makes this class unique?
4. Secondary Niche? Does the class do something else that isn't in their primary role?
In my eyes, here are some preliminary class roles;
POJ
Squire - Physical Support. Primarily Melee range. Focus on weapon types. Minor: Physical DPS. Knight - Physical Tank. Primarily Melee range. Focus on Shields. Minor: Physical DPS. Archer - Physical DPS. Primarily Long range. Focus on Bows. Minor: Long-range CC. Thief - Physical Support. Primarily Melee range. Focus on Stealing. Minor: Physical DPS. Lancer - Physical DPS. Primarily Short-Mid-range. Focus on Spears / Jump. Minor: Physical Tank. Samurai - Hybrid Tank. Primarily Short-range. Focus on Tanking Magic. Minor: Physical Support. Ninja - Physical DPS. Primarily Melee range. Focus on Two Swords / Stealth. Minor: Melee CC. Berserker - Physical DPS. Primarily Melee range. Focus on Berserk. Minor: Physical Tank. MOJChemist - Magical Support. Primarily Mid-range. Focus on items. Minor: Magical DPS. Black Mage - Magical DPS. Primarily Mid-range. Focus on Elements. Minor: Mid-Long range CC. White Mage - Magical Support. Primarily Mid-range. Focus on Healing. Minor: Magical Utility. Time Mage - Magical Support. Primarily Mid-range. Focus on Time. Minor: Magical DPS. Summoner - Magical DPS. Primarily Long range. Focus on AoE / Espers. Minor: Magical Support. Calc / Scholar - Magical Support. Primarily Mid-Long-range. Focus on Numerical Values / Books. Minor: Buffs / Debuffs. Oracle - Magical Support. Primarily Mid-range. Focus on Statuses. Minor: Debuffs. Illusionist - Magical Support. Primarily Long range. Focus on Evasion rates. Minor: Magical DPS. HOJMonk - Hybrid DPS. Primarily Melee range. Focus on Bare-Handed Attacks. Minor: Hybrid Support. Geomancer - Hybrid DPS. Primarily Mid-range. Focus on Terrain. Minor: Short-Mid range CC. Mediator - Hybrid Support. Primarily Mid-range. Focus on Talk Skill. Minor: Physical DPS (Guns). Bard - Hybrid Support. Primarily Mid-Long-range. Focus on Songs / Instruments. Minor: Magical DPS. Dancer - Hybrid DPS. Primarily Short-Mid-range. Focus on Dancing. Minor: Buffs / Debuffs. Red Mage - Hybrid Support. Primarily Mid-range. Focus on Utility Magic. Minor: Physical DPS. Blue Mage - Hybrid DPS. Primarily Mid-range. Focus on Blue / Learned Magic. Minor: Magical Support. Shaman - Hybrid DPS. Primarily Mid-range. Focus on Animal Spirit. Secondary: Magical Support. So, in doing this, we have the following roles: Physical DPS - Archer, Lancer, Ninja, Berserker Physical Tank - Knight, Samurai Physical Support - Squire, Thief Magical DPS - Black Mage, Summoner Magical Tank - N/A Magical Support - Chemist, White Mage, Time Mage, Calculator, Oracle, Illusionist Hybrid DPS - Monk, Geomancer, Dancer, Blue Mage, Shaman Hybrid Tank - N/A Hybrid Support - Mediator, Bard, Red Mage Now, some things that are out of place. Samurai's damage types aren't consistent with a POJ, they're more consistent with an HOJ. Samurai is a Tank, though, and has all of the other elements of a POJ, it's just that his abilities are somewhat magical. I think we've done a decent job bringing Samurai into line with the POJ jobs, though, so this isn't a big worry for me as much anymore. Secondly, there are no Tank roles in MOJ or Hybrid. Now, as a secondary role, Calculator / Illusionist could potentially act as a Tank for MOJ, and I'm okay with that being a secondary role concept for either of those. Illusionist has the greatest claim to MOJ tank, and I think that's a niche that we should at least explore, as Illusionist could do crazy stuff with evasion rates. Calculator seems like he could do stuff like that as well, with damage mitigation and some evasion. And in Hybrid, Monk, Geomancer, Dancer, and Shaman could all potentially Tank. Maybe Bard, in a secondary role. Monk and Geomancer have always had higher HP, and Dancer could do the Evasion tanking thing for HOJ. Shaman, I dunno where I want, but I'm brainstorming class ideas for it just in case. 1b. What limits are we placing on these classes? We have JP limits, JP limits to Master, and a set number of abilities thusfar, but none of these are sitting quite right with me. Especially having to create overly complex abilities just to fit into these niches, that's not the spirit of Final Fantasy. Final Fantasy is based upon simplicity. Fira does fire damage. It doesn't do Fire Damage to Half-Elves on Tuesdays, but only if you're in an X-shaped cross-pattern while sewing. Simplicity of skills will lead us to where we need to be. Yes, some classes will get more skills than others. I think this is okay. Yes, we'll need to revisit every class and re-evaluate where we want to be with it. This is also okay. Insofar as JP limits, I don't like them, but I understand them. If we want every class to be in the 5000-10000 range, that's a bit too wide. I definitely want to bring the bottom-end of that spectrum up and the top-end down. For instance, original Squire took around 1500 to Master, while Summoner took around ten times that. Now, in terms of the game, Summoner was 15x cooler than Squire, and Squire was a tiered class, so clearly we can't operate under the same ideology. I'd like to ideally see each class in the 5000-8000 range, with most sitting around 6 or 7. There will, of course, be outliers, and I'll be revisiting classes once we get this topic down. Now, we can also go another direction and to JP to Master. This means to be considered a Master in the class, you only need to spend X JP to get there. For some classes, this might be all of the abilities, and for others, it may just be 60, 70, 80% of them. I slightly dislike this concept, but I think we'd be okay in doing this if we do it right. The third concept is that we could do "Abilities to Master" - Wherein, you have to learn X abilities, and then you're considered a Master. This could go hand-in-hand with the above, since I'd imagine most of the higher-tier abilities would be required, and the lower ones not so much. Seeing as how the Equip abilities aren't a part of this, and I assume we don't want them to be equipped in the Support slot, I'd like to move Equip abilities to a new Category called Innate abilities that are always "on" when you have that class. This gives us another tier of things to affect for each class, cleans up a lot of the rules lawyering and checking that we'd have to do, and when someone takes Knight, he'll just be able to equip Swords, or Shields, or whatever it is the Knight needs to function. I'll likely be writing classes in this way from here on out, and it's already sparked a number of ideas in my head, so I'd like to see this move forward as well. 1c. JP costing, right now, has been haphazard at best. After classes are set, I want to go over them and cost based upon formula, concept, and ability. This will make sure that we don't have any outlying abilities (Like Bones of the Dead from v2 Beta), and will give us a good starting ground for each class to balance upon. 2. I'd like to see LOTS MORE cross-class abilities. Not just in terms of "Hey, I'll take Ninja for Two Swords and Samurai for Equip Katana, SO I CAN EQUIP TWO KATANAS (Although that was cool)," but rather that each class should ideally have another class or two or three that has an ability that will work well with it. For instance, Black Mage dealing elemental damage - We don't have a class that does anything with Elemental weaknesses, and as a result, I'd like to assign that to Calculator or Shaman. That's kind of a cool niche for Shaman, actually. But in either case. Like, a class that can Oil up someone and classes that can cast Fire-elemental stuff. I would like to see more of this. Lots more, actually. For instance, White Mage getting Regen, Oracle getting Poison, and Time Mage having an ability to trigger that buff / debuff for the remainder of the healing left / damage left. That sounds unclear. For instance, let's say White Mage casts Regen on someone. Regen lasts 5 turns, and heals 30 HP a turn. If Time Mage triggers that Regen, it removes the buff and immediately heals for 150 HP. The Time Mage quickens the effect and makes it heal immediately. Same with poison. 3. Class Choice, Primary / Secondary / Tertiary? Primary / Secondary? JP Caps? Alrighty. So, we're gonna visit this topic once more. Class Choice - Much of what we're going to develop here in terms of classes is going to depend entirely upon what we allow players to do / not do. And we need to figure out what we're doing here before all else continues. First, in FFT, you could learn any ability from any class. You also had to reach certain requirements to attain the "Higher" concept classes, and that's fine for a single-player game. Since this is a multi-player interactive, partially PVP game, this can't work, especially considering that new players would be further crippled by this concept. I don't mind giving players access to all classes to purchase abilities from, but in FFT, you could only have two active skillsets at a time. This would also compound a lot of issues, and we would have to cross-balance every combination of every skill in the game with every other skill, and that is not ideal for where I want to be. With that in mind, I think I can make a case for having just Primary / Secondary as class slots, with Master / Awarded / Prestige classes on the back-end for added utility. Each character in FFT had their Primary and then their Secondary skillset available at all times, and in most cases for the 'Master' classes, their Primary and Master skillset were merged into the same set. So, if we move forward with Primary / Secondary instead of Primary / Secondary / Alternate, this does simplify the process a bit. Plus, if we include enough Base classes, the field will still be plenty healthy (in terms of not-redundant), and it will also give people more of a reason to party up in the early game. Alright, I'm spent. I had way more that I wanted to input here, but I've forgotten most of it, and this is a shitton of info anyway. I'd love to hear input here, especially from tendehka, who inspired this! |
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Post by Ilium on Jun 3, 2013 16:06:36 GMT -6
Shaman/Illusionist/Berseker: I would like to make sure we are able to create unique roles for these three classes, separate from every other job. I like the role assignments you provided but we need to make sure their abilities are sufficiently different from the ones we provide for the other 21 classes. I have no problem including them in the final list of base classes, however you will have to excuse me if I wait before providing input on these additions while we try and get the other jobs in contention right now to work.When we start looking at issues like Samurai, it's because of our need to try and differentiate each class from one another. Of course we don't want Samurai to be just another Knight, so we need to get creative. This is my only main point of contention regarding adding more classes to the base list at this time. Right now we have 250+ abilities to balance and other stat and item variables to take into effect. If there's only so many ways to present a unique MOJ or whatever, then so be it. Not that I'm blankly stating 'cut it' without even trying to discuss them, I would just like to get the others done first. If we can do it right then that's awesome, let's include them, those three would probably have been the additional classes on the bubble I would have chosen to include as well.
I like the Illusionist in the MOJ tank role, it would give it a unique identity and justify its inclusion. Calculator I need to get to, but seeing as how we need to perform a revision over all classes I will have a more informed position on that job later. Both are going to take some creative brainstorming to really get the most out of them, especially Calc. We would also probably have to develop Shaman in the HOJ tank role, for the same reasons why Illusionist is the MOJ tank.
When I first started setting up design parameters for classes here, I wanted each of the base classes really just be balanced completely off one another. Stat differences all work under the same amount of variables and abilities would all be within a reasonable range of each other JP wise. I was hoping to try and maximize parity here so that there would be no clear cut 'better' classes over other choices, the only differences being each class fills a particular niche both within roleplay and combat scenarios.
This mentality leads me to side more with the 'less is more' and 'cut the classes' opinions, more than expansion of base class choices. More than anything, I would like each class to have its own role that can be expected of it in certain situations, just so there is no confusion on how to have that character work mechanically. Allow a wide variety of options through abilities, but they overall serve to benefit the job's main role. If we begin to add more classes to the base list, we begin to see overlap of roles and the watering down of the individual job's importance. Player opinion might be that class A fills a certain niche better than its role-equivalent class B, and we will see abandonment of certain classes in favor of others. No matter if we are able to find unique roles for all of the proposed classes, which is certainly feasible, this is the natural order of progression of adding classes in my opinion.
Another point that I was trying to make with base classes in the beginning was to have them serve as introductions to the potential of the game. Mastery classes were always going to be where the true class variety would be. Dozens upon dozens of options are available to us at the mastery level. If we kept the amount of base classes at a minimal amount, the elusiveness and wonder for the players of what's available at the next level of the game is better preserved.
One last point on this, going back to abilities: as I previously stated we already are having to account for 250+ abilities between 21 job classes at the base level. I would like to their to be as little ability overlap as possible, but I guess a little might have to be inevitable in order to have to not always have to resort to certain conditions for the ability to be used. At the mastery level there is of course going to be overlap, but I am not so concerned about that. That's probably impossible to accomplish reasonably anyways. I would just like to try and make the base classes as unique as possible.
Now, onto JP limits and the like. I don't know where 10 abilities/6000 JP limit came from. In hindsight that is extremely restrictive to certain classes where it was not so easy to develop within this style, in the ways that the Knight or Archer were. Other classes don't benefit at all from the structure. It was however beneficial in the way that it was easier for me to form rough drafts of skill sets and interchange abilities. In the skill sets that worked well in development of this method like the two aforementioned ones, I would recommend only making cursory additions or changes at this time, as in only when there is a brilliant stroke of genius that needs to be shared. I just feel our collective attention would be better served to focus on the classes still in contention at this point, and develop them under the new structure. There will be plenty of time now and during the beta to dive deeper into the mechanics of the class.
As far as JP ranges, I would like to see each class' basic skill set stay within the range of 6000 and 8000 job points. 6000 being the minimum required for Mastery of that class. I think within the parameters we work with here we can come up with classes with balanced skill sets this way. This also prevents situations where we have Squire with such a little amount of JP compared to the Summoner. Of course, in that situation the Summoner is not only going to be the better choice as a class, its total JP would prove that it just plain mechanically has more variety of options to choose from, or the ones Summoner does have are just that much more powerful. Sticking to the JP range concept, we come up with a situation where both Squire and Summoner are around the same area as far as JP goes. Now, the Squire might end up hugging the bottom 6000 limit while the Summoner might be trying to break through the 8000 ceiling, but the important part here is that they are not so varied from one another. The Squire would look like just as viable an option to choose as the Summoner, and the amount/power of the abilities would be reflected in the JP costs, the only differences being which roles or niches either job inherit.
Another idea that I haven't vocalized yet: Instead of having Master classes that open up for each base class once they hit mastery level, we just pool all of the advanced classes together into Mastery Classes. Mastery Classes would contain all of the old Master classes available to a job once it hits mastery, along with the other specialist classes only avaiable in unique situations. Under the Mastery Class concept, you do not automatically gain your Master class once you reach Mastery of the base. The point of having a Mastery point to the base class is to have it serve as the point upon which a character has the chance to pick up a Mastery Class. No level requirements or anything else, just however long it takes you to accumulate 6000 total JP in your class is when you become eligible for a Mastery Class. Using this concept the Lancer does not automatically pick up Dragoon once it meets Mastery requirements, however it does at that point gain access to the possiblity of picking that Mastery Class up, if it so chose to or met proper IC requirements. That same Lancer under the same circumstances would also then be available to pick up Astrologer, Chocobo Knight, Assassin, etc.
Also, a note on the idea of Alternative classes: I would like to see this stay as an option for base classes to choose. A change to this function that I would like to see is that both Secondary and Alternative classes would work under the same JP restrictions, the only difference being the Alternative is allowed to be a class of another tier than your base. So a Secondary has to be in the same tier, while the Alternative could belong to any tier, while maintaining the exact same restrictions in any other way. Also, Alternative would only be available to classes who choose not to take a Mastery Class or for those who have never made the proper IC requirements for one. A late-game character total would have access to three different skillsets at once, either a Mastery/Primary/Secondary combo or a Primary/Secondary/Alternative combo. Players who elect to take an Alternative cannot take on a Master class. Using this method we pretty much make Alternative obsolete, however we keep the mechanic in using a reasonably simple function, just to keep that amount of variety and choice for the players.
This is a big topic that I started to reply to last Friday (took the weekend off from this place, wanted to spend time with the fam), and I'm about to get off work, so I will get to the rest of your post shortly. Thank you for posting it though as we need to get a clearer idea of whats wanted from our base class list.
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Post by Ilium on Jun 3, 2013 17:59:44 GMT -6
Weighting JP costs is gonna be a tricky process and will no doubt require the participation of our players during the beta to show us what abilities need raised or lowered. However I agree that this is an important aspect of the abilities we need to get ironed out soon. The abilities will need to be weighted for their value to the class, and also according to their availability to Secondary/Tertiary job choices. I like going through the jobs and just posting ideas for skill sets for now, without trying to iron out jp costs for many abilities that won't even make the final cut. Once we get a semi-final skill set agreed upon we can weigh each of these abilities out and determining JP costs then. This is an aspect of development that I have unfortunately for the most part overlooked. I completely agree that we need more of this and we need it so bad it hurts. The main thing I would like to differentiate here is that I want their to be as little actual 'sharing' of the same abilities over each of the base classes. As in, Gained-JP UP being on Squire and Squire only. I understand this is different from what you are describing, I just felt important to say that again here. This vision for cross-class integration is something that could be fairly easy to pull off, while adding just that extra layer to combat and class utility. I will try my hardest from now on to brainstorm of some abilities that would fit in this role.I touched on this more in my first post, forgetting that you brought up that topic at the end of your post. So let me speak on this from the perspective I presented. I think it would be easy enough both thematically and mechanically to simply allow three skill sets to characters in the late game, without having to merge. As I described these three sets would either be a Master/Primary/Secondary combo or a Primary/Secondary/Tertiary combo. The reason for bumping up the Alternative/Tertiary JP limit to that of the Secondary's, was both to simplify JP cost requirements and buff up the actual usability of the Tertiary class. It would allow a character who did not take a Mastery to remain viable in at least their utility role. Under this concept for Tertiary Classes, this would allow the player the choice in adding the Healer role to their Knight or Thief, or adding the Tank role to their Mediator. With Mastery Classes having in-game requirements to meet the player won't particularly get the choice of which Mastery Class they are awarded with, though they could certain work in a certain direction to try and achieve a specific one.
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Post by kablizzy on Jun 3, 2013 18:56:35 GMT -6
Shaman/Illusionist/Berseker: I would like to make sure we are able to create unique roles for these three classes, separate from every other job. I like the role assignments you provided but we need to make sure their abilities are sufficiently different from the ones we provide for the other 21 classes. I have no problem including them in the final list of base classes, however you will have to excuse me if I wait before providing input on these additions while we try and get the other jobs in contention right now to work. Yup, I'm okay with this. I'll be working with you on unique niches and attempting to expand and contract what Base classes can do versus what Master / Awarded classes can do. Like Schwer said about Berserker, flavor is an important part of the class, but I enjoy having the trees balanced. One potential issue I see is if we put a focus on Squire / Chemist for POJ / MOJ, we'd have to come up with a third for HOJ. I was thinking we could just make this straight-up 'Civilian,' but I think I'd want a bit more flavor and concept behind it than that. Also, that doesn't imbalance the trees if we smush Bard / Dancer into Performer, and doesn't short-change us if we do so, so I'm okay with that too. Yes indeed, and I agree wholeheartedly, but yes, I want to set up a topic and figure out "What exactly can we do with classes?" and try and answer that, and "What niches do we need classes to perform?" As in, like, do we need something other than Tank, DPS, Healer? I think we do, by a lot. I also think about each individual element of the sim - FFT was made with the map in mind, so we need a bunch of classes that interact with range and tiles, we need a class that does ZoC stuff (I figured Illusionist could fill this niche nicely as well), we have Terrain, we have Magick attack, Elemental defense, we have Short-range AoE, long-range AoE, We have height, we have the Zodiac, we have Traps, we have Animals, we have all the wealth of ideas from Final Fantasy and the other two tactics games, and then there's around 100 more niches that we can explore. I've tried to make a list of these and failed miserably at it, but I think knowing and understanding our niches and what we want to accomplish between 12 and 24 classes is a step in the right direction. Yup, something I wanted to explore was Roleplay options for each class as well - One example I always bring up is in v2, the rescue that the Orphan Souls did was meant for players to use their brains and figure out an RP way to get out of each situation, but instead, they just picked skills from their lists to lean on, even in RP situations. And in one situation in particular, they casted Titan to shift the land up and seal a door. Which, in the game, Titan never shifted height of anything, but if you think about it in RP terms, he's blasting the land and causing a massive earthquake. So, that's kind of a weird overlap of OOC skills and IC uses. And I'm all okay with this. The only disagreements that I might have with cutting the base classes number of classes on principle are twofold - Depending upon what we do with Squire / Chemist, those classes are likely either going to be more Rp / Civilian / Sim-based, cut, or otherwise not full classes. This means that depending upon how we set it up, that leaves 21 classes otherwise. The second point I'd suggest pondering on is that this will be our beta run anyway, and I'd like to see what classes work well of these, and then cut from there once we have more information on how they actually run, what classes people gravitate towards, which skills work, which don't, and so on. I'd say the more classes we have available for the beta, the better we can work on which classes "made the cut", so to speak, and which didn't. I'm also still confident that we can have a unique niche for each of the base classes (24 classes is a lot), and even if we can't, I'm not too concerned about it since it's going to be the beta and not the full game. Indeed, I'm okay with that. Yup, I agree quite a bit. YUP. Look through "Master Class Concepts" in Admin discussion and look at the preliminary stuff I did there. It's a bit roughshod, but we have a lot of ideas open to us here. Currently, the concept there is that in order to move up to Astrologer, you have to be a Scholar, Oracle, or Time Mage master. OR, if you're a Knight / Lancer and want to be an Astrologer, Astrologer is also an Awarded class from X, Y, and Z factions. In doing this, this gives Scholars the option for a number of 'Prestige' class options - Astrologer, Prophet, Enchanter, Thaumaturge, Judge / Arbiter, Diplomat, OR if they meet the IC requirements to take Holy Knight (For instance, works for the Church, has a certain rank in the church, etc.), they can take that Awarded class, or any other Awarded class that they fit the requirements for. The idea is that every master class has at least some secondary way to obtain the class outside of Mastery, but Mastery automatically makes that player eligible for those Master classes. Also, this could potentially give us the flexibility to do any classes that would require two classes as a requirement (For instance, Dark Knight would Require, say, both Knight and Black Mage). So we have a certain number of slots available for class choices? Interesting. I like the concept, but just a preliminary observation - Who would take an Alternate class with JP restrictions over a potential Master class? I think that portion should be thought through a bit as well. I'm not entire sure where I fall on JP restrictions yet, but this is definitely something to explore and discuss (Also, I'm making a Calculator Skill that removes JP restrictions in some form, 'cause that's freakin' boss). Dude, family first. I'm going slowly at this myself due to family and hospital stuff and work and new marriage and all that, and I'm going to take time out for my family first as well. I see you replied again, and I'll be responding to that here in a couple minutes. |
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Post by kablizzy on Jun 3, 2013 19:02:25 GMT -6
It is rough, but doable if we follow development the way we've been doing it. I'm good with how we're doing classes currently, and considering that we're back to Square one a bit, I'm okay with taking it slow and just double-checking everything.
Actually, no, you got it exactly right. Gained JP Up would go on one class and one class alone - The way I've been posting, I'm including it in multiple skillsets for where it could potentially go (Squire, Chemist, Scholar / Calc, etc.), but at the end, it will fall into one. What I want is exactly like you said - not quite as blatant as Red Mage having a skill that says "Everytime a Lancer jumps..." but just reasons for each class to be paired with other classes.
I like the concept of Class Slots, perhaps we can expand more upon this idea? I still worry about people choosing Alternates over Masters, so that's something we'll have to address.
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Post by Ilium on Jun 3, 2013 21:55:01 GMT -6
Class Slots under my proposition would be the three active skill slots that each character would have access too throughout the course of the game. The character starts out with one skill slot, its base class set. So let's say our character is a Knight. Its first Class Slot would be Chivalry. When the character finally meets the requirements for their Secondary class, they choose a class and take on their second slot, let's say its Ninja. So now this character has two Class Slots filled, Chivalry and Ninjitsu. Now this is where we begin to see distinction. While the character only has one slot remaining, there are two avenues the class can travel in order to fill that slot: Mastery or Tertiary.
Mastery will be the preferred choice here, and will be much more popular than the Tertiary option. The Mastery Class will have high end abilities and stats, correlating with the idea that these are mid-to-late game options for the characters. Now there will be some limitations to the availability of Mastery Classes. Some of these will be IC requirements while others will be class requirements or whatever. Basically the character will have to expose itself to certain scenarios for access to certain Mastery Classes. I also don't want these things thrown around like cotton candy more towards the late game. Mastery Classes exemplify some of the farthest reaches available to the player in the game, and should be treated as such. Though that's not to say I want to restrict them severely. Somewhere in between 40-60% of the player base should at one point or another be capable of taking on a Mastery class.
So let's say our Knight joined the Glabados Church and devoted itself to its Faith. Through this the character successfully puts itself in a position to take on the Bishop Mastery Class. Here, the Knight's three skill slots would be filled by Intercession, Chivalry and Ninjitsu.
The second choice available to characters is the Tertiary class. This will be the lesser of the two options as it still only deals with the base classes, however it will still have its benefits. Let's say a character never completely puts itself in a position to take on a Mastery Class. Instead of being left in the dust by classes with three skill slots, this character would still be able to get access to a third skill set. The main advantage to this is that the character is able to choose their third class/skill slot without having to worry about IC or other requirements. There is no question on whether the character meets the requirements for the Tertiary choice.
There are unique advantages to this concept. Let's say our Knight's usual party that he rolls with does not have a healer. His usual party consists of a Mediator and maybe sometimes a Dancer when they team up/are in the same area, but the Knight never teams with a Chemist or a White Mage for dedicated heals. Using this Tertiary idea, the Knight would then be able to choose White Mage as his Tertiary, and gain access to that job's skill set all the way up to the Secondary restriction limit. That way the Knight would be able to serve as a utility healer when its needed in a pinch, and that character becomes that more useful to the party/clan format. In this scenario, our Knight's three skill slots would be occupied by Chivalry, Ninjitsu and White Magick.
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Post by kablizzy on Jun 3, 2013 23:12:33 GMT -6
Class Slots under my proposition would be the three active skill slots that each character would have access too throughout the course of the game. The character starts out with one skill slot, its base class set. So let's say our character is a Knight. Its first Class Slot would be Chivalry. When the character finally meets the requirements for their Secondary class, they choose a class and take on their second slot, let's say its Ninja. So now this character has two Class Slots filled, Chivalry and Ninjitsu. Now this is where we begin to see distinction. While the character only has one slot remaining, there are two avenues the class can travel in order to fill that slot: Mastery or Tertiary. Mastery will be the preferred choice here, and will be much more popular than the Tertiary option. The Mastery Class will have high end abilities and stats, correlating with the idea that these are mid-to-late game options for the characters. Now there will be some limitations to the availability of Mastery Classes. Some of these will be IC requirements while others will be class requirements or whatever. Basically the character will have to expose itself to certain scenarios for access to certain Mastery Classes. I also don't want these things thrown around like cotton candy more towards the late game. Mastery Classes exemplify some of the farthest reaches available to the player in the game, and should be treated as such. Though that's not to say I want to restrict them severely. Somewhere in between 40-60% of the player base should at one point or another be capable of taking on a Mastery class. So let's say our Knight joined the Glabados Church and devoted itself to its Faith. Through this the character successfully puts itself in a position to take on the Bishop Mastery Class. Here, the Knight's three skill slots would be filled by Intercession, Chivalry and Ninjitsu. The second choice available to characters is the Tertiary class. This will be the lesser of the two options as it still only deals with the base classes, however it will still have its benefits. Let's say a character never completely puts itself in a position to take on a Mastery Class. Instead of being left in the dust by classes with three skill slots, this character would still be able to get access to a third skill set. The main advantage to this is that the character is able to choose their third class/skill slot without having to worry about IC or other requirements. There is no question on whether the character meets the requirements for the Tertiary choice. There are unique advantages to this concept. Let's say our Knight's usual party that he rolls with does not have a healer. His usual party consists of a Mediator and maybe sometimes a Dancer when they team up/are in the same area, but the Knight never teams with a Chemist or a White Mage for dedicated heals. Using this Tertiary idea, the Knight would then be able to choose White Mage as his Tertiary, and gain access to that job's skill set all the way up to the Secondary restriction limit. That way the Knight would be able to serve as a utility healer when its needed in a pinch, and that character becomes that more useful to the party/clan format. In this scenario, our Knight's three skill slots would be occupied by Chivalry, Ninjitsu and White Magick. I think that would create somewhat of a rift between players who do and players who do not achieve a Prestige Class of some sort, and either drive those players who don't get one sooner to move towards places to get one. Now, I'm certain there will be some that won't, but I'm seeing some problems with the playerbase here. I get the concept, and I like the concept, I'm just not sure that they're equal enough (Even split 60/40 or making Master classes / Awarded classes harder to come by) that we won't get some backlash from it. The concept I had for Master Classes was this: You've got your Primary / Secondary classes, and then you can choose from a small selection of Master classes related to your class(es). These classes would overlap, but be flavorful enough that you could potentially pick a few different ways to go. I will say this - We had concepts for Master Classes having requirements both IC and mechanically, but these were really hard to fulfill in practice. For instance, we never decided whether Dragoon was going to be "Kill a dragon" or "Tame a Dragon" or what. But our issue was, "What if the character never runs across a dragon?" At that point, we'd either have to make dragons more frequent, or change the requirement for the class, which ruins the concept of the requirement. Also, I was thinking that there would be multiple ways to get into a Master / Awarded Class - For instance, Divine Knight. Divine Knight could be a Master Class for, say, Knight, Samurai, and Mediator (For some reason). Divine Knight is also an awarded class. In order for you to go up to a Divine Knight, you have to be a Master Knight (Perhaps with a few other requirements, like be level 25 and Break X number of armors, or something), or have RP consideration to get the class awarded to you. But the problem we ran into was that every requirement we came up with for every master class was just atrocious. So, I'm just kind of imparting some old wisdom here in regards to Master Classes being more difficult to attain. If you've got ideas to the contrary of this, that'd be super. Also, there's the issue of growth rates and skill power - Master classes will be more powerful than regular classes, by far, and while you can pick a third class from base classes and potentially get some cool utility, the other players will be getting things like Stasis Sword and Galaxy Stop. You'll be pulling in Cura and Regen, as well as that class outpacing you in Growth by a lot. Not to say that it isn't fair, but I think the gap between player power levels is enough to at least consider at the very least a vast majority of players being given the tools to upgrade into a Master / Awarded Class if they so desire. We can also make it more work to do so, like Bank 3000 JP or something, but if we're wanting to limit the frequency of Master / Awarded classes, I think the better way to go is away from the inevitability of half the playerbase being automatically outclassed and unable to do anything about it. |
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Post by Ilium on Jun 4, 2013 7:14:26 GMT -6
You don't think that the concept of Master classes already creates a rift between players in and of itself, though? I would believe that by their definition as higher-skilled classes available only under certain conditions already separates them from the player base as a whole. This disparity would only be compounded by the fact that players with a Mastery Class have access to three skill sets, whereas all the other players are still stuck with their two Primary and Secondary slots.
In this sense Mastery classes can be viewed as vertical growth, whereas Tertiary classes can be viewed as lateral growth. Yes, Mastery Classes are where its at and is what every player will strive to achieve, hopefully. However like I said earlier I don't think you or I want Masters thrown around like cotton candy, and so there will exist a sizable minority of the player base who for whatever reason have not achieved a Mastery class. My first figure of 40-60% was somewhat of a low-ball, I would lean towards even making them hypothetically accessible to 70-75% of the player base in best case scenarios. The main thing about Mastery classes I would like to see though is it takes active participation in the game to be awarded one.
So, a fairly active player who routinely logs in, makes his PT's on time and also roleplays, is a perfect candidate for a Mastery class. Somewhere along the span of that player's career, it should have more than likely stumbled across every in-game requirement for at least one awarded class, and will thus be given the opportunity to choose to take on that class. We could even design Propositions so that they commonly present in game requirements for awarded classes, though their overall importance to the Prop may be minimal. Just so we are constantly exposing the playerbase to these requirements in small doses, we are not put in a position where it looks like some of these Masters are too hard to achieve.
On the other hand, a player who might log in routinely but isn't always on the ball with PT's or doesn't roleplay all that much won't have put their self in a position to take on a Mastery class. This player will probably not have made the in-game requirements for one, and thus plays only in the Base class side of the pool. In this situation, do we want to limit this player further by only allowing him access to his Primary and Secondary skill sets, or do we want to at least give this player an added utility in the form of a Tertiary, which in this game would serve basically as a 'second Secondary'? I would say that because the rift is already created with the concept of Master/Awarded classes in the first place, it might be wise to try and fill that disparity even a little bit.
Now onto the point of class and IC requirements for Mastery classes. For the most part I would like to see these easy to achieve for a player, once said player has reached a reasonable point in its participation. Across the board, the bare minimum for players to even become eligible for these classes would be the 6000 JP Mastery cap. Once a player has accumulated 6000 JP in its Base class, only then do we start to take into consideration IC prerequisites. Thinking more on this concept it would probably be reasonable to expect harder requirements out of some classes than others. So say a Dragoon's requirements are: Be a Lancer with at least 6000 JP and talk with a Dragoon NPC, while a more advanced Mastery class like Divine Knight might have considerably more to it to accomplish. Either way I agree with your concept of overlapping of availability of certain groups of Mastery classes, according to whatever situation the character is in. I suspect their will be a lot more prestige classes than there will be base classes, of course. Making their requirements at least somewhat bland will go a long way towards hopefully seeing a good lot of them make their way into the game.
Well, are we also sure that we want to make Master classes that much more powerful than the base classes? I was imagining a minor up tick in stat growth. Something certainly noticeable over a course of several levels, but nothing too overpowered so that a party full of Base class players isn't screwed from the get go. Yes, a player with a Master class has access to high tier abilities, why not at least broaden the usage of those classes who don't by giving them a Tertiray skill set?
I think my opinion on Mastery classes mostly comes down to I see them mostly as rewards for our active player base. If you participate in the game and are generally a nice person to converse and roleplay with, here you go. In contrast, if you don't necessarily contribute as much to the game should you be given the tools of a Master class to perhaps go on and wreck someone's shit, someone who might have put a lot of hard work and dedication into their character? That's not to say master classes would be restrictive from the get go on the amount of people who can achieve them. Our requirements for them should be designed so that theoretically 100% of the player base would be able to achieve a Mastery class, and in a perfect world where each and every one of our players posts a 1000 times a month and roleplays and participates constantly, every single one of our players would have a Master class.
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Post by kablizzy on Jun 4, 2013 11:30:32 GMT -6
You don't think that the concept of Master classes already creates a rift between players in and of itself, though? I would believe that by their definition as higher-skilled classes available only under certain conditions already separates them from the player base as a whole. This disparity would only be compounded by the fact that players with a Mastery Class have access to three skill sets, whereas all the other players are still stuck with their two Primary and Secondary slots. In this sense Mastery classes can be viewed as vertical growth, whereas Tertiary classes can be viewed as lateral growth. Yes, Mastery Classes are where its at and is what every player will strive to achieve, hopefully. However like I said earlier I don't think you or I want Masters thrown around like cotton candy, and so there will exist a sizable minority of the player base who for whatever reason have not achieved a Mastery class. My first figure of 40-60% was somewhat of a low-ball, I would lean towards even making them hypothetically accessible to 70-75% of the player base in best case scenarios. The main thing about Mastery classes I would like to see though is it takes active participation in the game to be awarded one. Well, yes, but I just don't want to make that rift any larger than it has to be, but I'm just being cautious. I definitely don't want them thrown around like candy, and I do want there to be some requirements and not just "Hey, level 25! Here's your Master Class!" But if every player fulfills said requirements, I'd like for there to be a reasonable, reachable tier for every player if they so desire. I also want it to be a significant amount of work, but I definitely don't want it to be out-of-reach automatically, is basically all I was saying there. And I'm big on this. Propositions fulfilling requirements are cool, but I just want to make sure that the Knight / Berserker doesn't fulfill the requirements for Assassin, Prophet, Dervish, Cleric, Cardinal, Chronomancer, Heirophant, and Necromancer, and not the ones that he wants to upgrade into. Either that, or for each requirement, we make the requirements transparent, so our playerbase knows what they're shooting for. Which makes sense. So with this in mind, then, what are you envisioning as requirements? Because I'd imagine they want to make sense to the class, be moderately difficult to hit into by level 20-30, and perhaps easier to hit as time goes on. But yes, I agree that a fallback for those who don't get / don't want a Master Class is a good idea. I want the requirements to be a lot of work, but not obscure work. For instance, making the requirements "Talk to a Dragoon NPC" is awesome. "Slay 12 Blue Dragons" would not be. In that regard, if we make the requirements for Dragoon "Obtain 6000 JP" and "Be a Lancer" and "Talk with a Dragoon NPC," then I'd imagine once that character hits level X (Wherever 6000 JP gets hit), he gets to become a Dragoon. This was the concept behind Mount Ordeals, by the way, which got butchered (Because I wasn't here to guide the usage of Mount Ordeals) - It was meant to be the equalizer for each person to achieve their Master Class - For instance, Paladin's Mount Ordeals requirement was identical to Cecil's Mount Ordeals quest in FF4. These were our preliminary requirements for Dragoon during v1: These were awful. I like the "Felled less than 3 dragons of any type" thing, as that means that you would have to be more careful in your doings. Now, "Must have felled MORE than 3 dragons of any type" would be a much, much worse requirement. I would caution that we should likely do more than Just 6000 JP and Talk to a Dragoon, but something additional that the player can work towards, but not as much obscure stuff. Dragoon Master Class Requirements: - Achieve Level 20.
- Achieve 6000 JP in the 'Lancer' Base Job Class.
- Collect twelve Dragon Teeth, a Dragoon Lance or Dragoon Boots.
- Speak with a Dragoon NPC and convince him to train you in the ways of being a Dragoon.
- Climb Mount Ordeals and finish the Dragoon Trial.
Now, the level thing can be done away with easily, because if you're getting 6000 JP, you're gonna be beyond level 20 anyway. Collecting items; We can make each item required by Master Classes included in the Loot table. For instance, 12 Dragon Teeth for Dragoon, 3 Mind Marbles for Genius, 4 Divine Crests for Divine Knight, 30 Whole Bones for Necromancer, and so on. Doing this gives the character a checklist to work towards, and us making these items available gives them a tangible thing to work toward during their career. We can also have players buying and selling Master Class items (For instance, if a White Mage slays a Dragon, and obtains 7 Dragon Teeth from it, then the White Mage could go to the Auction House and sell those to a Lancer who may need them. The Dragoon NPC thing should likely be a precursor to Mount Ordeals, preparing him for the Trial. Now, this leads me into Awarded Classes. Awarded Classes were meant to be explicitly not tied to your Master Class. They were meant to be more obscure, since they were generally more powerful. For instance, Divine Knight. Being awarded Divine Knight was meant to be mostly IC - entirely roleplayed out, and "awarded" from someone with the power to give the class. In doing this, I was wanting Master Class upgrade requirements to be different than Awarded Class requirements, even if the class is the same. For instance, the "Speak with a Dragoon NPC," requirement would be a separate way to get the Dragoon class if you weren't a Lancer. Basically, as a Lancer, you could "Master" your class by fulfilling X mechanical requirements, or as a White Mage, you could obtain the Dragoon class by RPing with an existing Dragoon and convincing them to train you in the ways of being a Dragoon. This gives players a host of options for Prestige classes - Time Mage could 'Master' their class into Astrologer, Sorcerer, Prophet, Enchanter, and Chronomancer, or get Awarded any other Master Class with enough IC work (Holy Knight, Divine Knight, Cardinal, Bishop, etc. through the Church, Machinist through the Machinist's Council, etc.). Anyway, That was the original concept there. That's a good point, and I see them as the same. Now, if you don't contribute much to the game, don't do props, and don't roleplay, the chances are that you're not going to have enough JP or be a high enough level to warrant being in a Master Class anyway, so if there's a player that only logs in once a month to do a PT or KT, and never posts and never contributes, then I'd say that player definitely hasn't done enough to get there. And that's all I want, is there to be the ability for anyone to achieve the Master Classes, but if they don't do the work to get there, then obviously, we wouldn't just fling them out to them. So I'm good on this. Blizz edit: Also, just about every single player I've spoken to has unilaterally wanted more class choices, and this was when we had 24 Base, 24 Master, and a large amount of Awarded Classes available. Everything from Pistolier, Beast Master, Necromancer, Viking, Swordmaster, Hunter, Pilot, Pirate, Gambler, Acrobat, Tactician, Scholar, Swashbuckler, Fencer, Warrior, Gladiator, Arcanist, (And all of the FFTA classes, for that matter), and hundreds more. The overwhelming outcry has always been "Why not X class?" and "Why only these 12, 18, 24 classes?", so the goal has always been to try and stay true to FFT as well as stay true to the playerbase, who is here to fulfill their dreams that never got fulfilled in FFT. Classes are the heart of the game, and if we could make 48 Base classes work, there would be players here to play every last one of them. Now, I get the concept of 'No redundancy' and agree with it, but we've already got a lot, there was a lot in FFT, and if we brand it correctly, it shouldn't feel redundant at all. |
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