Mordred
Role Player
Don't believe the Church and State.
Posts: 195
|
Post by Mordred on May 9, 2013 21:19:52 GMT -6
Geomancers are uniquely attuned to the power of the earth. They use this mysterious connection to commune with nature, contemplate man's place in the world, and smash goddamn faces in. A Geomancer is a screaming, shirtless madman who rushes down from the hills with hair unbound, riding upon an avalanche of his own creation. He swings his double-headed axe hard enough to split the earth and anything unlucky enough to get in its path, pausing only a for a second to mourn the delicate flower your corpse crushed on its way to the ground.
Under construction... The basic idea I'm going for here is that Geomancers can use Elemental skills of their choice regardless of what terrain they're standing on. Elemental skills generally hit every enemy around them, giving Geomancers a powerful incentive to get into the thick of things and start swinging away.
Blizz edit:
Clear Sky - Changes the weather to a clear sky. Doesn't work in certain areas.
JP: 200
MP: 38
Speed: Now
Range: Auto
Thunderstorm - Changes the weather to a thunderstorm. Doesn't work in certain areas.
JP: 200
MP: 38
Speed: Now
Range: Auto
Rain - Changes the weather to rain. Doesn't work in certain areas.
JP: 200
MP: 38
Speed: Now
Range: Auto
Snowstorm - Changes the weather to a snowstorm. Doesn't work in certain areas.
JP: 200
MP: 38
Speed: Now
Range: Auto
Pyrohelix - Gradually decreases the target's HP. Greatly affected by Clear Skies (+20% damage) and Rain (-20% damage).
JP: 550
MP: 69
Speed: 20
Range: 3
Effect: One
Cryohelix - Gradually decreases the target's HP. Greatly affected by Snowstorms (+20% damage) and Clear Skies (-20% damage).
JP: 550
MP: 69
Speed: 20
Range: 3
Effect: One
Ionohelix - Gradually decreases the target's HP. Greatly affected by Thunderstorms (+20% damage) and Snowstorms (-20% damage).
JP: 550
MP: 69
Speed: 20
Range: 3
Effect: One
Hydrohelix - Gradually decreases the target's HP. Greatly affected by Rain (+20% damage) and Clear Skies (-20% damage).
JP: 550
MP: 69
Speed: 20
Range: 3
Effect: One
Anemohelix - Gradually decreases the target's HP. Greatly affected by Thunderstorms (+20% damage) and Rain (-20% damage).
JP: 550
MP: 69
Speed: 20
Range: 3
Effect: One
Geohelix - Gradually decreases the target's HP. Greatly affected by Rain (+20% damage) and Thunderstorms (-20% damage).
JP: 550
MP: 69
Speed: 20
Range: 3
Effect: One
Noctohelix - Gradually decreases the target's HP. Greatly affected by Snowstorms (+20% damage) and Thunderstorms (-20% damage).
JP: 550
MP: 69
Speed: 20
Range: 3
Effect: One
Luminohelix - Gradually decreases the target's HP. Greatly affected by Clear Skies (+20% damage) and Snowstorms (-20% damage).
JP: 550
MP: 69
Speed: 20
Range: 3
Effect: One
|
|
|
|
Post by kablizzy on May 9, 2013 23:23:19 GMT -6
Ah, thank you! I am going slowly at putting these up. I agree wholeheartedly that their original build was awkward at best. If Geomancers were truly masters of terrain, they would not need to be on that terrain. I wouldn't mind
I love the idea of Geomancer getting things like Aero, Quake, Break, and perhaps some other less-used elemental spells, such as Water. All three of those Elemental spells (Aero, Quake, Water) are natural elements, whereas Fire is not, so it'd make some sense for him to get those.
I'd also like to open some discussion on Geomancer being able to do stuff with Weather, as that's generally a common class theme, and things like Snow, Rain, and other weather patterns would be kind of a cool concept to mess with.
|
|
Schwerpunkt
Power Gamer
Who would ever want to be king?
Posts: 422
|
Post by Schwerpunkt on May 10, 2013 14:07:47 GMT -6
I'd actually like Aero, Quake, and Splash (or whatever Water is) to be Spellsword abilities. I think actually casting those spells is more thematic for that class than this class.
What I'd like to see here is the Geomancer use attacks based on the tile he is standing on. If you're standing on lava, maybe you just hurl a jet of lava at a guy and burn his face off. If you're standing on ice, maybe you conjure up an ice shield that eats the first attack directed at you (sort of like the new Golem effect). And so forth. To do that, though, we'd have to broadly classify what tiles we're using and how they are classified.
Which, of course, requires that we finally address the map question.
|
|
|
|
Post by kablizzy on May 10, 2013 23:04:46 GMT -6
Indeed.
I really liked your concept about Geomancer being a DoT-type class. Frostbite, Surge, Burning, and the like. I've been out of it this week, I'ma have to hit this hard on Sunday, or perhaps tomorrow after work.
|
|
Mordred
Role Player
Don't believe the Church and State.
Posts: 195
|
Post by Mordred on May 11, 2013 8:28:42 GMT -6
Restricting the Geomancer's abilities based on the tiles he's standing on creates problems unless we balance out the terrain blend on all maps in a REALLY weird and unsatisfying way. Like, there is no good reason to have Lava tiles on Mandalia Plains, but if we preserve the original "Elemental" skill functionality that's exactly what we're gonna have to do to avoid Geomancer JP wastage...
One idea I had on that point was that within a 3v3 effect area, any "Elemental" skill they use hits all enemies standing on the appropriate tile type, so you can't Hell Ivy the guy standing on bare earth but you CAN nail his 3 friends on grass with it.
I was thinking Geomancers would use a variety of skills tied to nature but not necessarily the land itself: for instance, one power I had in mind was Solar Flare, which would use a jet of focused sunlight to burn bitches' faces off.
We could re-flavor Geomancer to manipulate weather more so than land, so we could have something like...
CLASS' BIG POWER: Call The Winds :: Allows the Geomancer to change weather on the battlefield between sun, storm, snow, cloud
LITTLE POWERS: Solar Beam :: Fire attack usable in Sun
Blizzard :: Ice attack usable in Snow
Thunderbolt :: you get where this is going right
I do think Imbue would be an appropriate power for the Geomancer, though, mostly as a way to ONLY shuffle elemental attributes of his equipped items, without a flat damage boost like HoI's 5/4x Rune Knight runes. Imbue would be far more situational, but appropriate.
Basically, I confess, I was thinking of Earthbenders from "Avatar: The Last Airbender" when I was thinking about Geomancer. Take the basic party role of FFT Samurai (AoE melee damage), add some Barbarian flavor (axes, high PA, and an ability or two that lets them fight on past death), and stir well with the classic Geomancer's element-shuffling powers. What you end up with is a magelike weapon-wielding class that basically defines the "HOJ" category.
|
|
|
|
Post by kablizzy on May 11, 2013 8:42:59 GMT -6
I actually really, really like that a lot. Perhaps we could include Schwer's elemental DoT stuff in that? I'ma try my hand at a Geo build sometime this weekend including stuff like that, but I love where you guys are going here.
Also, re: Spellsword - that wad kinda my idea for Red Mage as well, so if we just wanna make that class and name it whatever, that's the direction I was looking for there.
|
|
Mordred
Role Player
Don't believe the Church and State.
Posts: 195
|
Post by Mordred on May 11, 2013 19:02:02 GMT -6
ACTION: ELEMENTAL
IMBUE :: Assign one elemental property to an equipped hand, head, or body item. CALL THE WINDS :: Change the weather on the battlefield to a chosen condition for a certain duration. Possible conditions are: - HEAT :: Strengthens Fire effects.
- SNOW :: Strengthens Ice effects.
- STORM :: Strengthens Lightning effects.
- GUST :: Strengthens Wind effects.
- FOG :: Strengthens Water effects.
- DUST :: Strengthens Earth effects.
EARTH SLASH :: Stolen from Monk. HELL IVY :: Can add Don't Move to enemies in 3v3 standing on vegetation, deals nonelemental damage to all who pass through the living plants for X CT. GUSTY WIND :: Pulls everyone in 3v3 1 tile closer to the Geomancer, deals Wind damage. SWAMP TIDE :: Transforms effect:2 area centered on the user into poison-causing swamp tiles for the next X CT. ERUPTION :: Charge required; creates a volcanic eruption at the target location, transforming effect:2 area around the user into Lava for the next X CT and spewing 12-16 balls of magma (Fire element) randomly in an effect:3 area around the target tile. TOTAL ECLIPSE :: Inflicts Blind on entire battlefield (this one kind of sucks; help?) CLEAVE :: Cut a motherfucker in motherfucking half! Attack ignores shield evade. Requires an axe.
REACTION
FIGHT ON :: Trigger: KO :: Br% chance to get up and keep fighting with 0 HP. The next damage he takes will KO him again. SUPPORTBLOODY ROAR :: When Critical, gain +3 PA. EQUIP AXE MOVEMENT
ANY GROUND :: The Geomancer can move over any type of terrain at will. This includes any kind of water, regardless of depth or flow, which he simply walks on as if it were grass. This also includes Swamp and Lava, from which the Geomancer never suffers ill effect.
|
|
|
|
Post by kablizzy on May 11, 2013 19:22:35 GMT -6
Has anyone looked into the old HoI Berserker skillset? Seems like there's some parallels here that could totally be useful to us.
|
|
Schwerpunkt
Power Gamer
Who would ever want to be king?
Posts: 422
|
Post by Schwerpunkt on May 11, 2013 19:37:25 GMT -6
Ehhh. Really don't like that. Different build. My general plan is to categorize tiles into three types -- green (forests, fields, and so forth), gray (stone, both uncut and cut), and blue (which includes snow, rivers, ice, and so forth). Wood and more exotic stuff don't get specialty skills.
Aoes, naturally, follow the cross shape FFT convention.
1. Hell's Ivy - When standing on any 'green' tile, attack enemies for 60% damage with a chance to apply Disarm (25%) for two turns.
2. Scald - When standing on any 'blue' tile, superheat water and blast the enemy with it for 95% damage.
3. Oil Font - When standing on any 'gray' tile, unleash the potential energy in the stoic earth, inflicting 70% damage and applying Oil (100%) to all targets. Requires green tile.
4. Tangled Bramble - When standing on any 'green' tile, compel the land to bring your enemy closer, inflicting minor damage (25%) and pulling (50%) them to you.
5. Purifying Waters - When standing on any 'blue' tile, remove all status effects (including the good ones) from an adjacent ally. Cannot be used on self.
6. Wind Slash - Compel the wind to strike a distant target (50%).
7. Earthen Wave - Earth Slash.
8. Carve Model - Gradually begin the process of petrifying yourself, applying Stoneskin and reducing all incoming damage by 20% for 4 turns. On your fifth turn, you become petrified.
9. Lava Blast - Fire a superheated ball of molten rock, searing the enemy (90%) and simultaneously setting him on fire (30% over time). If the target is afflicted by Oil, the damage over time effect is doubled.
RSM
R1. Wind Ward - Replies to all incoming direct damage with Wind Slash, regardless of where the target was.
S1. Elementalist (we cut it from Wizard, right?) - You no longer have to stand on a specific tile to channel its abilities.
S2. Equip Axe.
M1. Any Terrain - You can freely walk over any terrain without adverse effects.
M2. One with Nature - Whenever your turn ends on a 'green' tile, you are automatically cured of all negative status effects and healed for 2.5% of your maximum health.
|
|
|
|
Post by kablizzy on May 11, 2013 22:24:43 GMT -6
So, there's a few things that Geomancers traditionally can do. First and foremost, they're generally based upon terrain. However, every implementation of terrain has sucked gigantic, ferocious testicles to date, so I dunno. Something that HoI did with terrain that I didn't like as much (Because the execution sucked ballsacks) is affecting height of tiles. Kind of a nifty concept, but it's rough to manage. Although a couple of our abilities might raise/lower tile a bit. Secondly, they're Elementalists. They deal with Wind, Earth, Thunder, Fire, Ice, Water. Definitely something I want to explore here as well. Third, they inflict status effects. This is cool as well, but we've got a shitton of status classes at the moment. Fourth, I love Imbue - It's what Rune Knight should have never had, and this is the correct implementation of it. Next, I actually do love the self-AoE mechanic that Samurai dropped off, but all of these abilities except Sandstorm that I'm making are going against that. So I dunno. And finally, something that hasn't been explored, except in Mord's case, weather. And I think this has a shitton of potential. I 've got no idea how to implement it right, but I'ma give it a try here. It looks like we're all in agreement about Earth Slash (Which was kinda funky on Monk anyway), so howabout we build on that? I also like Call the Winds quite a bit, so I'm gonna give that a try. Also, it looks like Hell Ivy is in both of your builds, so I'ma go ahead and include both of those in mine: Imbue - Assign an Element to weapon Earth Slash - As Monk Hell Ivy Call the Winds - Change weather to _____ Now, some other things I like about both builds - Tangled Bramble and Gusty Wind are freaking awesome effects, and similar enough to warrant combining. I think this would be an awesome ability for Hell Ivy. Hell Ivy - Damage and Pulls foe closer (Effect: 1). Now, I also love Schwer's idea for Geomancers to get elemental DoT (Burning / Frostbite / Surge / Tremor / Aftershock). And this is where the ideas get super cool. For Earth-elemental, we have Earth Slash, from Monk. I'd like for this to potentially Add: Tremor / Aftershock as Earth DoT damage. Earth Slash - As Monk, Add: Tremor / Aftershock? For burning, we want Lava, I assume. I'm not a huge fan of the Eruption mechanic, but I do like the name and concept. So I'ma add Eruption in like this: Eruption - Converts a tile (And perhaps the 4 tiles around it?) to lava. Chance to Add: Burning. Raises the center tile by 1? I also like Wind Slash, since that's totally Canon, and perhaps as with Gusty Wind, we can make it Knockback instead of Pull? And I know we have a few Knockback abilities, but I'd rather have this than Force Lance, personally. Edit: Wind Slash / Sandstorm? I'm leaning towards Sandstorm, myself. Also, we could make Wind Slash just a Physical, Air-Elemental attack with knockback. And then I'd like to add in a Thunder-based ability. Name pending. I'm pondering making it a larger AoE, but I'm not sure. In either case, Add: Surge? After this, I'm looking at an Ice-based skill. Blizzard, probably? Add: Frostbite / Chill? And then FUCK YES Carve Model. I love your take on this, Schwer. I dislike Cleave, but I do want a bit more of a Physical tinge to this, since he is beefy and is an HOJ. I also messed with range / effect in the table. Ugh, I almost had my draft entirely done, and my browser crashed. Sonofabitch. Here's the short version, Goddamnit:
|
|
|
|
Post by pendejochy on May 12, 2013 0:35:58 GMT -6
For geomancer abilities, they can use any of their geomancies, but they get a stronger result if you're in the appropriate tile. Ex: Your waterballs are more powerful when you're in a stream than if you're in the desert.
Since Spunky was thinking of earthbenders, you could have them change the terrine too. Raise a wall of dirt/ice to impede foes, or even give allies a boost to a higher place/make stairway for the entire party to get on a rooftop and rain down arrows/magic on foes who will be forced to follow you up.
Or change the land. No lava tiles? The geomancer will just MAKE a lava tile to stand on.
|
|
Schwerpunkt
Power Gamer
Who would ever want to be king?
Posts: 422
|
Post by Schwerpunkt on May 12, 2013 2:32:02 GMT -6
Ehhh. I am extremely hesitant to keep stacking elemental effects onto this guy. Remember, they're not the same effect. They're different. They don't replace each other. You can conceivably create a situation where, because they last 3 turns each, the Geomancer just cycles through 3 direct damage abilities that apply a DoT. And the end result is he will do outrageous damage.
I also don't even want to see weather effects get involved. Think about the coding involved. If we have weather effects, we're introducing another element of RNG that can heavily influence the battle. But more importantly, we're also adding a layer of complexity. Kharkonia is a desert -- it's going to be HEAT or DUST nearly 100% of the time. Zelamonia (along with Lionel and Limberry) has a Mediterranean climate, which means it's rainy in the winter and prone to droughts in the summer (so HEAT and FOG). Romanda is boreal, which means very long winters (ie, it's almost always SNOW). The other regions would probably be continental, which is reasonably balanced (maybe Fovoham and Lesalia would be Nemoral, with lots of SNOW in the winter).
In other words, weather effects sound lovely but they're be a nightmare to implement. And, frankly, there's the opportunity cost to consider. Every hour he spends trying to make a function to accurately encompass every settlement on the map is one less hour Ilium can spend developing things that more than just one class can influence.
And there is way too much going on in that draft. The Geomancer can make every strike elemental, he can pull the enemy towards him, he can push the enemy away, he can apply DoTs, he can (potentially) ignore being KO'd, he hits harder than everyone else (especially since he's using an axe), he can inflict blind, and he generally has no flaws. In fact, his biggest flaw is the fact that he can't directly heal -- which is negated by the fact that he can add a passive heal on his movement action. He may even be able to hit anyone, regardless of where they are on the map, as a reaction ability.
Honestly? That draft feels like HoI's syndrome: "here's a concept that's really cool, so we're going to throw it in the pot -- and any other cool concepts get thrown in too." The end result is an obscenely overpowered class that basically has no right to exist. Ladies and gentlemen, I present Rune Knight v2.
|
|
|
|
Post by kablizzy on May 12, 2013 2:54:09 GMT -6
Couple things you may have missed about the draft -
First, that each of the elemental abilities that would proc DoT effects has a different range and effect. Earth Slash goes out in a straight line, Eruption has a + shaped effect akin to original Geomancy, and Blizzard has a wide-range effect.
The second part of this actually got lost in my original post that got deleted - None of these are supposed to do a whole lot of damage in the ability itself, they're supposed to do more in the DoT. The initial ability coming in at 10-30% damage, and then another 10-30% in DoT. Hardly unreasonable, and completely editable to our whims. Also, considering that we can mess with hit%, we can make it so that it's not quite as reliable to cycle stack, and even in the instance that we figure he has a way to stack them all on the same guy in 3-turn cycles, we can flip range and effect to our liking as well.
I think you may have missed the concept on Weather too. The Geomancer is basically just adding a layer to the battlefield that says "Right now, Wind +10%". That's it. Doesn't matter where in the world, doesn't have to be randomized. Just needs to be a modifier on all elements of that type. Plus, compared to counting and classifying types of tiles and effects of each, it's negligible amounts of work regardless.
I'll agree that there's a lot going on in the draft. Probably a bit too much. But we can easily cut stuff that doesn't fit. For instance, even assuming that the weather is easy to code, we can toss that out the window. One with Nature can also get the axe, pun totally intended. Bloody Roar and Fight On can go to Berserker if need be. That leaves him with just some moderately powerful basic 'Attack' commands. Let's say we choose Sandstorm as our Wind ability. We cut Wind Slash. So, we're left with the innocuous ability to assign an element to his weapon (Without the Rune Knight bonus or the Weather thing to enhance damage on said imbued weapon), he can pull a dude, petrify himself, and add some DoTs. Oh, and Blind bitches. If Wind Ward is a problem, we can cut that and replace it. And Counter Geomancy doesn't really work with a setup like that, so we may as well throw that out the window too. For RSM, that'd leave us with Equip Axe, Any Ground, and Attack-UP, so we'd need... 3 more primary abilities, a reaction or two, and maybe one more Support. Does that sound like a better starting place?
|
|
Schwerpunkt
Power Gamer
Who would ever want to be king?
Posts: 422
|
Post by Schwerpunkt on May 12, 2013 3:09:23 GMT -6
The problem the Geomancer had in FFT was that his single target damage was abysmal. If "well, his single target damage is still shit" is how you're going to balance the elemental effects, you're not addressing the underlying problems with the class. That's why my skillset is very heavy on the single target attacks: because that's what the Geomancer needs more than anything else. I had assumed you were following my model.
And, frankly, I think the weather thing, simplified to that point, is just bad. Adding the climate adds a very interesting layer to the world and forces you to plan according to where you're fighting. Simply implementing a map-wide "oh, x element does y% more damage now" effect is lazy. It doesn't add anything to the game and, apparently, only one class can even manipulate it, so its primary advantage is minimized when there isn't an active Geomancer. And if you just cycle randomly, you create more work for whoever is running the battle, because you just know there are going to be standard "if it's hot out, use fire" clauses in every single post (and more clauses = more work for the battle runner).
I don't like the revised build. You still have the same problems (damage is primarily from limp-wristed aoes, since you've almost entirely done away with single target nukes), Imbue has no real value if all it does is add a marginal elemental effect (except when fighting mobs, which is when it becomes useful), and there's no real single guiding theme here.
I look at that build and have to ask: why would I want this class? I wouldn't. I do not see any real purpose for it.
Contrast that to my build. Lots of single-target nukes, lots of elemental effects, a few useful status effects, and what's ultimately a very well-rounded build. Sure, you need to take a support ability to really unlock the class's power, but that seems to be a fair trade. Especially since, even without it, you as a player have much more control over the elements you're using than you ever did in FFT.
|
|
|
|
Post by kablizzy on May 12, 2013 13:45:55 GMT -6
What I did was try to bridge the gap between your build and Mord's, since I figured there were a couple things I liked about each, and you've basically come back by saying that your build was better, when, like, 80% of it is identical to your build anyway, and half the stuff that wasn't was your idea regardless, so I can't fathom how you're have a problem with your own abilities.
Wind Slash, Earthen Wave, and Carve Model are identical to your build with the exception that I made Wind Slash possibly Knockback (Which was just a suggestion anyway) and added your DoT idea to Earthen Wave. Lava Blast / Eruption, I just increased the range to fit Mord's concept and flavor. All of the RSM abilities are yours, with the exception of Elementalist (Which obviously doesn't fit if terrain isn't included), Fight On, and Bloody Roar, the latter two of which can easily go to Berserker.
So I added Sandstorm. Sandstorm causes a status effect, which your build also did, and
from there, the only abilities left that aren't directly from your exact build are the abilities that require us to track tile types, and tracking tiles is silly. Probably as silly as tracking the weather, so I can understand cutting all of that out. Of those four abilities that weren't included, I took the name Hell Ivy and merged it with one of your abilities anyway. So the only three abilities from your build that didn't actually get a nod from me were Scald, Oil Font, and Purifying Waters. Blizzard replaced Scald, since I was trying to keep in the theme of your DoT effects and add Frostbite in. That leaves Purifying Waters and Oil Font, of which I actually love Purifying Waters, so we could totally include that, but Oil Font felt a bit out of place. I just disliked having a class that can both oil and then flame for huge damage. So that's ONE ability concept that was actually, seriously cut out of your build ideas. We had a few things added, but seriously. I don't know how much better I could do without just not developing for the class at all. Also, if the Geomancer is really, actually a non-MOJ class, then we need a couple abilities and reasons for him to exist as an HOJ. Namely, a reason to wield his axe. So that means we'd likely have to cut a couple abilities anyway to make room for stuff to flesh out his HOJ concept a bit more.
Beyond that, you're telling me that Imbue is both Rune Knight broken and also not powerful enough at the same time, that DoT damage is both overpowered and underpowered simultaneously, but if the damage is wrong, we don't throw the build out the window, we fix the numbers. If the flavor is wrong, then we've all got the wrong idea about what a Geomancer is and what he does. But as I see it, the concept is there, and correct, and we've all got the right idea (Elemental Effects, Statuses), with the exception of maybe a physical ability or two. If there's something wrong with the numbers, don't tell me that you don't like the build, suggest other numbers for it to have. Plus, if Imbue wants to go to Spellsword, let's give it to Spellsword.
Basically, all I did was remove the terrain requirement for your build, merge a couple of Mord's ideas, and fiddle with numbers. The vast, vast majority of this is entirely yours, tweaked a bit so that Mord and I might have some say in how this class goes. So, I don't actually understand the issue that you're having with your own build. If we have to go back to the drawing board and boil it down further, then, we've got the following.
Hell Ivy / Tangled Bramble - Physical damage, Pull / Disarm
Some sort of lava ability - Fire Damage
Earth Slash - Earth Damage
Carve Model - Self-Petrify
Purifying Waters - Status Heal
Wind Slash / Sandstorm - Wind Damage
And that leaves room for a couple physical, melee-based abilities if we so choose. I still love the Elemental DoT idea, since if we're removing Wither, we won't have any DoT concepts present except for Hemorrhage and Poison, and why should they get all the fun?
R/S/M
Wind Ward
Equip Axe
Attack UP
Any Ground
|
|
