Samurai Development Thread

[Schwerpunkt]

Well there are 9 recurring elements in Final Fantasy, and 10 Katana's available to the player in War of the Lions. So that works out nicely to include in one generic base Katana, and nine more with elements if we so choose. Also, that was part of the point of slightly reducing physical power in return for the access to elements. It would just be an alternative to what we have already with weapons, carbon copies of the same 'spend more gil, get more attack' formula, and it would help characterize the Samurai class distinctly. By the way, what is FP?

It works out pretty well until you consider the massive disparity in WP. Asura (which is acquired much later than tier-0 weapons would be, by the way, because of how weapon unlocks work in that game) has a WP of 7. The Muramasa has a WP of 14 (and isn't the best katana at all). If we operate on the basic WP*PA=Damage formula, there's not much incentive to ever using the Asura over the Muramasa. Even if the Asura is Fire elemental and the other guy has Oil, you are much better off simply smacking him in the face with the Muramasa. If we assume 10 PA, you're looking at a difference of 70 damage. That's pretty enormous and I really don't think this feature is viable.

We could make it work by giving random or specific status effects to crafted items when they're made via PT (I want to see lots of them, by the way), but the problem there is that we'd be tying the Samurai down with crafting. No other class is so dependent upon it -- no other class has the efficiency of its class-defining skill (which is what Draw-Cut is here) so firmly tied into crafting.

I like the notion. I really do. But I just don't see how it can be viable. Either we make the Samurai a "pay through the nose to get custom katanas of every element on a regular basis" policy, which means the average Samurai is probably paying ten times as much per item upgrade as any other class, or we have a system where there's simply no incentive to use lower-tier elemental weapons simply because they cannot possibly match the damage output of the higher level ones. Especially if the higher level weapons get effects like Holy.

Again disregarding historical precedence, I believe there is at least room for the ability in the game. We could rename it and give it different a description but keep the ability. Call it Familiarity, and describe it as the Samurai having an innate connection with his weapon, being able to produce more damage. I mean yeah, a Lancer is going to use both hands for his weapon. I'm not sure if the developers thought the Lancer would just poke and prod the enemy until it learned Two Hands, at which point it magically decided there was more benefit to using both hands. Or perhaps, we limit the ability to only weapons that are handled with one hand as it is. The trade off would be the inability to equip shields, which would go back to being a benefit of allowing Samurai to equip shields in the first place. I just like the ability as a support option, from my own personal experience with Tactics.

The sword spirit thing plays on the spirit (kami) veneration of the Shinto religion and the sword veneration of feudal Japanese society. It's a self-parody and, in the context of a video game that basically deconstructs Jesus' story and the ruthlessly lampoons the Papacy, it really does make sense. I like it purely because it's creative and it's ballsy. And it also gives us a niche (self aoe options) that virtually no other class has. It's also extremely iconic.

But remember, our game isn't taking place in the context of a world where everything is either 0 or 1. It's going to be very RP driven and that means that most of our physical abilities -- our martial arts -- need to at least be loosely based on reality. The moment Bob walks in as a shield-carrying samurai, my immersion is broken. I can roll with the sword spirit thing -- it's not all that unrealistic in a world where you can drop miniature comets on people -- but something as blatantly anachronistic as a shield-carrying samurai just kills it for me. I doubt I'm the only one.

Also, with the Lancer and Knight both having shields, this would give us three base classes with it before Equip: Shield. That would mean three very high P-Ev classes with shields, plus a fair chance at two additional classes (Thief/Vagabond/Bandit and Ninja) also having very high P-Ev. Basically, five of our six POJs will have extremely high P-Ev. That leaves the Archer as the only POJ that can be reliably killed by melee attacks. This strikes me as kind of silly. Given that, I really don't think shields are appropriate.

Besides, the sword spirit thing gives us an interesting opportunity to make the Samurai a class that's able to tank casters. That's a remarkably unexplored concept in gaming in general.

[sunspawn]

About the elemental katanas, we could just have all 9 have the same WP and level - no one said weapons have to scale according to level. And Draw Cut doesn't have to be the central ability of the samurai - elementally-powered regular attacks aside, you can add other things, not to mention bows.

Also, considering that historically Samurai were cavalry rather than infantry, perhaps give them some support ability that has to do with being mounted?

[Schwerpunkt]

Setting all the katanas to identical stats would either create a situation wherein the Samurai is given access to overpowered weapons relative to his level or a situation where the Samurai is simply unable to obtain good weapons (which would be compounded by the fact that Draw-Cut requires katanas, so he can't even take something like Equip: Sword).


And while giving Samurai a chocobo sounds appealing, it's a mess to balance. And if we give them one, there's no basis whatsoever to denying one to the Knight/Lancer. In all three cases, the classes have relatively limited mobility (in some fashion) as a balancing force; removing that will make them overpowered in comparison to unmounted classes.

Mounted combat is simply extremely hard to balance. I'm not even sure I want chocobos as mounts, much less equippable items/skills.

[kablizzy]

I'd also like for tanks to be slower, even though I'm iffy on preventing people from buying one for mobility purposes, I could make the case that a purchased Chocobo is too skittish to ride into battle - they are docile creatures and were not raised for combat. Kinda like puppies.

[sunspawn]

I did not mean to "give" them chocobos. More like some ability that has to do with being mounted. But then again, you just mentioned you don't like the idea of mounted combat itself, so no cookie.

So, what is more or less definite with the samurai? Because it seems to me that some classes don't really have to be implemented. I mean, and don't call the Inquisition or Shrine Knights on me, considering that there is no Wutai anywhere in sight of Ivalice, maybe just add the Samurai as a prestige/whatever class for Knight/Archers?

[Schwerpunkt]

While I'd be okay with cutting samurai or relegating them to a prestige class, they occupy an extremely unique position in the game, one that I think we should keep on hand. They're also a long-standing part of the franchise and cutting them out would be more or less the same as axing Wizard. People expect it, and I think we'd need a really good reason to remove them.

But while not having any Oriental cities on the map is slightly problematic, it's not really an immersion-breaker. As long as we don't have an army of Samurai NPCs (which we won't), it shouldn't be a problem.

[sunspawn]

"As long as we don't have an army of Samurai NPCs"

But we might have an army of Samurai PCs... with japanese names... spiky hairdos... mysterious pasts... and players believing they have plot armor and center stage as protagonists.












No, I don't really think that'll happen. Hope so...

That aside, what IS concrete so far with the Samurai? We can move on from there.

[Schwerpunkt]

We really haven't decided anything. The samurai will be in the game and he'll use katanas. That's about as far as we've gotten.

[kablizzy]

I think the dichotomy is this: If we want Samurai to be like it was in FFT (Which I don't, really), he'd be a HoJ, and we'd have to change his growth rates.

In my eyes, he should be less Draw-Out and more physical-utility. I like the Alt-Tank concept, and instead of huge defense, I'd like to see Samurai with either some damage mitigation, a small bit of healing, but what else could he do?

Also, I have absolutely no idea what we'd replace them with. Theoretically, we could cut them, flip one of the HoJ's back over to Physical, and move some stuff around, but eh.

They could be the physical manifestation of positive self-buffs (And maybe a few party ones), and use those to Tank with. That'd be a really cool way to go, actually. Like, cool reaction / support abilities meant for livability, and then a few active abilities to mitigate damamge and extend ZoC stuff. We can go down that road and start trying to form that. What do you guys think of that?

[Schwerpunkt]

So, uh, why are we still talking about where we can go, where we might go, or what-have-you? I posted a skill list as the first reply to this topic. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work -- but I'd at least like to address it before we just can everything and start over for no reason.

[kablizzy]

Because through all this discussion, we have yet to figure out what it is we want the Samurai to actually do. You and I have both suggested stuff, and the rest of the discussion has just been on historical accuracy and elemental katanas. Honestly, I haven't had the time to respond to most of this yet, since I'm still pondering, just wanted to keep discussion going while I'm formulating ideas and where I stand.

[kablizzy]

Finally getting around to commenting here. Going back from the end -

While I wouldn't mind relegating Samurai to Prestige, I think Schwer's right that we'd need a damned good reason to do so. I say we continue debating and making the class, and then if we decide to shove it off, we can shift abilities where necessary. However, we have the trees balanced in number (With the exception of Mime), so again, we'll have to come up with a good reason (Both mechanically and flavorfully) to do so.

Also, playing Devil's Advocate, a guy who can jump off-screen requires a much larger suspension of disbelief than a dude carrying a shield. I would prefer that Samurai didn't, but worst case scenario, they get to pick up a piece of metal and defend themselves with it. I would rather like to see Katana with M-ev% instead of p-ev, which would be kinda nifty.

Draw-Cut isn't a huge deal to me, since most players will be 'carrying' their entire inventories into battle anyway. That said, I don't care either way about Draw-Cut if Draw Out isn't going to be a large part of the skillset.

On to the build -

Draw-Cut, I'm not a huge fan of, as I said.

The Disarm / Kusarigama - I do like a bit of the ranged disarm.

Level 1 Sword Spirit stuff - I like this too.

I also like the ability to pull an opponent in and attack. I can see it happening in the original game, and that makes me giddy.

Bow attack - I dislike the concept of attacking with a bow without owning a bow, but you're right, giving them a bow to equip would be silly. Dunno how to reconcile these two concepts, though.

Secondary Sword Spirit skill - I love the concept of applying Shell as well, allows the magic tank thing to sink in. Nice.

Tempest - A favorite skill of mine as well.

Whistling Arrow - again, not a huge fan, but I do like the provoke thing. Perhaps something adding Berserk?

Ethereal Embrace - Yup, like this as well.

We can lower the power level of Blade Grasp, but I'm not particularly attached to it either.

Instead of the bow abilities, I'd like to see a bit more in the way of support / survivability, but I'm on the laptop now, so I'll post again later when I get access to the rest of my stuff.

[Ilium]

I like the idea of the Samurai being an alternative tank to the Knight and to a lesser extent Lancer. Have it focus more on survivability and damage mitigation rather than HP. With that in mind here is what I have come up with so far.

Ability	Description	Range	Effect	Speed	JP
Draw-Cut	The Samurai is a walking arsenal of swords; mid battle, he sheathes his current weapon and turns the unsheathing gesture into a vicious close-range attack on another opponent. Success: 100% System: Equips any katana in your inventory, and then make a normal melee attack with your newly drawn weapon against an adjacent foe.	Melee	1	Now	100
Hayate	Strengthen your focus on your enemy's next movement. Success: 100% System: Raises P-Ev and M-Ev by 10% until next turn.	-	-	Now	150
Asura	Calling upon the ancient spirits within his blade, the Samurai commands them to assault his foes. Success: 100% System: Deals non-elemental magick damage to adjacent foes, equal to 70% of Attack command.	2	1	Now	250
Kusarigama	A weapon attached to a chain used to disarm opponents and drag them closer. Success: 100% (Hit Rate) 50% (Pull) 10% (Disarm) System: Attack command. 50% chance of pulling the target into adjacent tile, 10% chance of Disarming target.	2	1	Now	300
Magicide	Use your ki to transfer damage. Success: 100% System: Attack command. Damage is dealt to MP instead of HP.	1	3	Now	350
Purifying Breeze	A technique that releases the spirit in the user's katana, bestowing the protection of its effervescent life force. Success: 100% (Heal) 25% (Protect) 75% (Shell) Effect: Heal, Protect, Shell Quote: "Innocent sword, slash evils and protect! Purifying Breeze!". System: Heals user equal to 20% of max HP. 25% chance of inflicting Protect, 75% chance of inflicting Shell.	1	3	Now	500
Tempest	Performs a flowing, 4-strike combo while floating gracefully among enemies. Success: 100% System: Four attacks divided at random between the number of opponents, each at 20% strength, +5% for each target beyond the first (Four targets would mean each attack is at 40% strength)	1	1	Now	550
Dismissal	Strike the foe in a way to disrupt his focus. Success: 100% (Hit Rate) 25% (Beserk) System: 70% damage of Attack command. Cancels the target's pending action and resets the target's CT to 75. 25% chance to inflict Beserk.	4	8	Now	600
Ethereal Embrace	A technique that releases the spirit in the user's katana, bestowing physical healing and increased speed. Effect: Regen, Haste Quote: "Sword of fury, inject power! Ethereal Embrace!" System: Casts Regen and Haste on user.	1	3	Now	700

JP: 3500

I tried to copy as much from Schwerpunkt's template as I could. I agree with Kablizzy with the bows, if we are going to include bow-specific abilities to a class than it needs access to to the actual weapons from the get go. Otherwise it would be pointless, and the class is able to fire bow attacks without an actual bow equipped (or one provided by default), than that just serves to cheapen Archer. So those two abilities I switched out.

• Hayate: One of the abilities that I switched out. We could potentially change this to just +15% M-Ev and get rid of the P-Ev buff, to keep in line with the Samurai's focus on M-Ev.
  
• Asura: Changed to reflect Schwerpunkt's final tier 1 ability.
  
• Kusarigama: I absorbed both Kusarigama abilities into one. I'm not so sure on giving Samurai the ability to pull targets to them with 100% effectiveness. Doing so could routinely cause enemies who weren't within melee range of other characters, to come within that range and come under attack when they perhaps could have avoided it. This would be basically an automatic Provoke command. So to change this, I gave it a 50% chance of Pulling the character, and also 10% chance of Disarming. If anyone disagrees with this or would change the percentages, let's discuss it.
• Magicide: Lifted from X-2, to keep with the Magick focus. We can adjust this to x% of HP damage, if this needs nerfing.
• Purifying Breeze: Based off of Schwerpunkt's tier 2 spirit blade ability. This ability will always heal a small amount of HP, more than likely trigger Shell, and a slight chance to trigger Protect. 
• Tempest: We are all in agreement here, let's roll with it.
• Dismissal: Again lifted from X-2, with adjustments this time. This is the second ability that replaced the ranged ability. Provoke was replaced with Beserk on Kablizzy's suggestion, as Provoke is already in use by Knight and I'm trying to differentiate our tanks as much as possible. CT resets at 75 instead of 0, as that would be too powerful, and not at 100 so as to not make the Samurai vulnerable or give the target basically a chance to change his mind on his last action. There would be a small window of opportunity provided against the target at 75.
• Ethereal Embrace: Again we are in agreement. Automatic buffs.

I'm getting off of work right now, posting this as is and I will continue from home.

 

[kablizzy]

Someone remind me to reply here tomorrow.

[Schwerpunkt]

I really don't like the idea of Draw-Cut adding elemental damage. Basically, all we're doing is following the Rune Knight's problem -- this class gets a (free!) elemental damage boost, which then means they hit that much harder on everyone and they hit like freight trains on vulnerable targets. In addition to this, it makes it impossible to balance the katanas against one another unless we have a system where there are like three different katanas of each PA tier, each with a distinct element, and we simply cycle through them. And on top of all of this, it makes the Samurai by far the most gil-intensive class to play explicitly because he needs to keep all his weapons on hand, whereas other classes can simply sell their old stuff off.

It sounds good, but it's just not going to be possible to balance.

If Draw-Cut is going to be in the game, I'd much rather see it as a regular attack of some sort. Maybe a regular attack with double crit rate or something.