General Class Development Discussion

[sunspawn]

Yeah, that. I think that some classes should be just naturally incompatible(here! that's the word - compatibility!) with others, like the weapon triangle of Fire Emblem. Because everyone being equally good/bad against everyone would be boring. At least, in my oh-so-humble opinion.

[Schwerpunkt]

If memory serves, HoI did something like that with its secondaries, which you could only pick from the same tree your primary was in (so, technically, Knight and Priest were incompatible until your tertiary).

I'm not a fan of that. I like players having choices and being able to go off-rails, so to speak, and try things that are new and innovative. Sometimes they succeed extremely well, creating a niche we hadn't planned out, and other times they fail spectacularly and it's a glory to behold.

[sunspawn]

Wait, that's synergy. I am not talking about which class is good with which class as secondary, I mean that a knight might stonewall them weaksauce thieves and archers with his heavy plate and board, but will get turned into soup in a tin by a proper wizard. Basically classes being strong vs some and weak vs others.

[Schwerpunkt]

Hard counters are both impossible to balance and just plain boring. "I beat you in a duel because my primary class is adept at killing your primary class" isn't any fun. It's unavoidable that some classes will be strong against some and weak against others, but we really shouldn't be setting out with the idea that Wizards exist to kill Knights.

[Mordred]

May 1, 2013 11:20:22 GMT -6 sunspawn said:

IMO, skills should be situationally unique - like the classes themselves, skills should not have intersecting areas of usability(you get my point, right?) Basically, a skill for each situation that the class can find itself in that fit with it's role and theme.

Let's say for example Lancer(you're welcome to look at the skill ideas, but they're more of an explanation of the concept): Jump as it's baseline skill, Falling Strike for times when you've got the high ground, some javelin throw skill for range(restricted to 1H?), Lancet for a small self-heal and MP-gain(drain? adding another class to the anti-mage league?), maybe an active skill for a big burst of movement?, a close burst small damage sweep around himself if he gets surrounded... basically making him a mobile dps machine that's hard to pin down, but not as hard to pin down as the ninja.

Also, class synergy? That is, how each class fares 1-on-1 against other classes? Say, Knight being a good physical blocker(makes more sense than being good at dodging lightning bolts and fireballs) but getting chewed up by a magic bombardment. While a ninja being able to get out of the way before that big nuke hits, thus avoiding the damage in an indirect manner, not relying on MEV, but rather on quick thinking on his feet(pun intended).

I'm fairly sure tht my points and ideas will get chewed out now, so I'll go eat some apple pie.

I like the cut of your jib. :3

[sunspawn]

I don't mean hard counters. I mean that in some subtle way, these classes are not really as good at fighting class x than class y. Like Knights being disadvantaged against archers and wizards and all the other ranged classes because they are slow and melee. Nothing major, but still something noticeable. Again, it will make people band together to cover each other's weaknesses. Basically evade rates, engagement ranges, damage and other things that already exist as limiting factors in the games.

Aaaaaaand, ~last bite~, I'm out of apple pie.

[Ilium]

Big finals review for me today, then finals tomorrow and Tuesday. I'll be on as much as I can, but for now just enjoy this base stat growth spreadsheet I created. You guys can discuss modifications you think are necessary. Most of the HP/MP rates are from Schwerpunkt's suggestion in the Knight thread, MA/PA growth is from HoI.

Base Stat Growth

[Schwerpunkt]

I don't like that system. If the Knight is getting 1 PA every 8 levels, something's fundamentally and irrevocably broken.

Besides, I think I fairly well explained how to match PA/MA growth with HP/MP growth on a sliding scale.

[Ilium]

I don't know what you are looking at. Knight is increasing PA every four levels, just like at HoI. If you'd like to contribute some examples go for it, obviously none of it is set in stone at this time and we will present a more finalized draft of stat growth closer to the beta.

[Schwerpunkt]

My Excel auto-opened to the last tab, apparently, which is MA, not PA. The Knight having lousy MA growth is sensible.

You have a summary of all the growth rates used in that excel sheet somewhere?

[Ilium]

May 5, 2013 21:23:23 GMT -6 Schwerpunkt said:

My Excel auto-opened to the last tab, apparently, which is MA, not PA. The Knight having lousy MA growth is sensible.

You have a summary of all the growth rates used in that excel sheet somewhere?

I can have a list of all the growth rates ready for you sometime tomorrow probably. In the meantime, all of the numbers in column C have the modifiers which were used to create the functions. Within the function, it is the second number with the dollar signs that is the modifier.

[Mordred]

Yeah, reading that spreadsheet is pretty difficult. A simple list of growth rates would be very helpful.

It's very pretty, though. :3

[kablizzy]

Messed with some class stuff tonight - trying some weird combinations out and sleeping on 'em. Be around sparsely this week.

[kablizzy]

Pende brought up a really, really cool idea tonight -

Instead of having Squire and Chemist as full-on classes, we make them tree-specific 'Civilian' jobs - Works just like we'd want a Civilian class to do. Nifty concept, anyway.

[Diethe]

Like, they contain basic, RP and civilian skills? Like how a mage has inherent chemist and a lancer has squire?

We could even link that to the crafting so Squires (And all the POV classes) create equipment and has the 'Crafting I' skill and Chemists make the potions and stuff with the 'Alchemist I' skill. The downside is limiting the market of a mage to only potions and wouldnt be able to create equipment and rods, staves and clothing etc. so probably not.

Could be discussed.